Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Benotti69]

If the general consensus is that the peloton is getting cleaener then for some riders there will be even more reason to dope - greater advantage to be gained and then the 'arms race' starts again. This is what I believe happened in 2012-now.

I dont believe the peloton is getting cleanER. I obviously believed that with the advent of the test for EPO things got less crazy, but that in my book doesn't mean there are more clean riders.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Shambles

This thread is a disgrace - people flinging utterly baseless accusations around in desperate support of an agenda. Pathetic.

 

[Benotti69]

Teams that aren't doing BBs/EPO are probably still doing Testosterone, Cortisone etc.

Tramadol, HGH, Xenon, AICAR, Clen..........

Remember when they opened Willy Voet's boot, there was more than epo in it. There was a heady cocktail of PEDs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Because Xenon aint illegal doping yet.No positives for Xenon. But if Garmin aren't doping why are they looking

This is the biggest stumbling block for me. I was prepared to post that I do not think there are any teams with team-instigated / initiated / managed doping programs.

But Mr "Clean" Dr on "Clean team" Garmin freely admits "WE LOOKED INTO HOW TO LEGALLY DOPE OUR RIDERS".

 

[SundayRider]

This is the biggest stumbling block for me. I was prepared to post that I do not think there are any teams with team-instigated / initiated / managed doping programs.

But Mr "Clean" Dr on "Clean team" Garmin freely admits "WE LOOKED INTO HOW TO LEGALLY DOPE OUR RIDERS".

Yeah I thought that was pretty amazing that they admitted that! Can't believe that practice is not already banned?

 

[sniper]

dan martin is 62 kg. so is/was iglinski, but iglinski is smaller.
anyway, the crazy epo 90s are gone, but did we see such lightweight lbl champs in the 90s?
is that a healthy weight for such an effort?

 

[ustabe]

This thread is a disgrace - people flinging utterly baseless accusations around in desperate support of an agenda. Pathetic.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ashenden

We all agree it aint the 90s.

So he admits to his stupidity.

Ashenden says there is a 10% increase in haemoglobin mass - what % of benefit does the athlete actually attain?

Tramadol, HGH, Xenon, AICAR, Clen..........

Remember when they opened Willy Voet's boot, there was more than epo in it. There was a heady cocktail of PEDs.

Which brings us back to point - most of those PEDs in 1998 were undetectable in any way. Now there is at least some controls against these items to frustrate the dopers.

 

[Benotti69]

Ashenden says there is a 10% increase in haemoglobin mass - what % of benefit does the athlete actually attain?

Vortex your way through this

http://www.haematologica.com/content/91/8/1143.full.pdf

Which brings us back to point - most of those PEDs in 1998 were undetectable in any way. Now there is at least some controls against these items to frustrate the dopers.

Which is why Garmin are looking for new and better doping

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Vortex your way through this

http://www.haematologica.com/content/91/8/1143.full.pdf

Of note the study is from 2006.
Also - it does not say what actual benefit an athlete gets.

If you know what the value is, then say so.

Which is why Garmin are looking for new and better doping

So, they are able to micro dose and get this benefit, but they look at a less effective method? Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[Benotti69]

So, they are able to micro dose and get this benefit, but they look at a less effective method? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Who says the method is less effective?

That they are looking for 'methods' of doping says it all.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who says the method is less effective?

That they are looking for 'methods' of doping says it all.

Yet it isn't 'doping' - thats why they looked at it.
Because all teams, all riders do look to see the latest things that may assist in training or racing, from equipment to the latest rice cake.

When PS looked at it he concluded that even though it was not illegal or banned, it did cross the boundary of what is ethical - and rightly so.

 

[Netserk]

I was the first to use that meme here

Do I get a cookie?

 

[Netserk]

So, they are able to micro dose and get this benefit, but they look at a less effective method? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Why is that? Does one thing exclude the other?

 

[Benotti69]

Yet it isn't 'doping' - thats why they looked at it.
Because all teams, all riders do look to see the latest things that may assist in training or racing, from equipment to the latest rice cake.

When PS looked at it he concluded that even though it was not illegal or banned, it did cross the boundary of what is ethical - and rightly so.

Anything performance enhancing is doping. Xenon falls into this category.

That PS raised it publicly might also be to alert people that it is in use in the peloton and as they are not going down that road why not let everyone know that others are wihout pointing fingers.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Anything performance enhancing is doping. Xenon falls into this category.

I agree and indeed so does Prentice.

That PS raised it publicly might also be to alert people that it is in use in the peloton and as they are not going down that road why not let everyone know that others are wihout pointing fingers.

Yip - highlighting that while its not banned it is perhaps being used by teams or riders, thats what I would expect an ethical Doctor to do.

 

[Benotti69]

Yet it isn't 'doping' - thats why they looked at it.
Because all teams, all riders do look to see the latest things that may assist in training or racing, from equipment to the latest rice cake.

When PS looked at it he concluded that even though it was not illegal or banned, it did cross the boundary of what is ethical - and rightly so.

I agree and indeed so does Prentice.

A chemical, in gas form, should be obvious that it would be doping and therefore why waste time looking at it if you are an ethical team

Yip - highlighting that while its not banned it is perhaps being used by teams or riders, thats what I would expect an ethical Doctor to do.

Or highlight it because your team cant afford it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A chemical, in gas form, should be obvious that it would be doping and therefore why waste time looking at it if you are an ethical team

Or highlight it because your team cant afford it.

No - it depends on whether it actually enhances performance or not.
If it does then its illegal. If you wish to continue talking about Xenon we can discuss it in the appropriate thread.

 

[Benotti69]

No - it depends on whether it actually enhances performance or not.
If it does then its illegal.

Why would a team look for anything to enhance performance if they are clean?

Diet and Training is the clean method. Anything else is doping.

 

[hiero2]

Anything performance enhancing is doping. Xenon falls into this category.

That PS raised it publicly might also be to alert people that it is in use in the peloton and as they are not going down that road why not let everyone know that others are wihout pointing fingers.

Whoa. The way you state it, FOOD is doping. You gotta eat to survive. What you eat affects your performance. Eating the right foods can be "performance enhancing". So give us something a little more realistic here, ok?

 

[hiero2]

Why would a team look for anything to enhance performance if they are clean?

Diet and Training is the clean method. Anything else is doping.

Again, to make the same point - "DIET AND TRAINING" IS PERFORMANCE ENHANCING. Where do we draw the line between "diet", and "dope"? Green tea is a food. Coffee is a food. Coca leaves are a food. But even less blatant than that, red meat is a food - but it can be performance enhancing.

Please, give us some edges that we can see to be realistic.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why would a team look for anything to enhance performance if they are clean?

While I see your overall point - every team and everyone looks for something that can eek out a few more watts or an improvement in performance.

So, yes - even clean teams will look at new methods. They looked at it and concluded it was unethical, not in law, but in principal. Good

Diet and Training is the clean method. Anything else is doping.

What about that thing AG2R had, that freezes your willy off. Is that performance enhancing?

 

[Netserk]

No - it depends on whether it actually enhances performance or not.
If it does then its illegal. If you wish to continue talking about Xenon we can discuss it in the appropriate thread.

So if it enhances performance it's doping, if it doesn't, there's no reason to use it.

So why would Garmin look into it? Either scenario they won't use it.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I dont believe that any rider in the peloton has a 'meh' attitude to monuments. Armstrong did, but I doubt any rider today would not try and win a monument if possible. Gilbert managed to target a whole season of monuments(except ParRoubaix) in 2011 and had a decent TdF.

Are you telling me that Froome was as prepared
For his Tdf as he was for his 36th place finish?

The LeMond argument is a misnomer and not really helpful as Dan Martin is not an LeMond type of rider in talent or ability.

Thats not the issue. I am saying you do not have to be a Lemond to beat doped riders if you are clean.

I dont believe Garmin are a clean team. I have no evidence that they currently are a doping team. They have a hell of a lot of doping experience. They spend a lot of money making sure their riders dont test positive. Riding at the pointy end of the sport is not possible, IMO, on bread and water. Their Doctor talked about how they looked into using Xenon. What do they use? Why would a team that is clean use anything apart from training and diet?

The purpose of a team is to be performance enhancing. Of course they discussed it. Just like team management would discuss beetroot juice, altitude training, or gluten free diets. According to you, a DS telling his team not to dope must be dirty because they even had the discussion.

 

[The Hitch]

I dont believe that any rider in the peloton has a 'meh' attitude to monuments. Armstrong did, but I doubt any rider today would not try and win a monument if possible.

Look at Contador and Froome in Liege last year.