Dan Martin - "Now I know you can win clean"

[Parker]

So if it enhances performance it's doping, if it doesn't, there's no reason to use it.

What are you views on altitude tents? (Or altitude training even).

 

[lean mean &green]

Ashenden says there is a 10% increase in haemoglobin mass - what % of benefit does the athlete actually attain?

we (JV included) have discussed exactly this topic. You're welcome to search for it cus I don't really care that much.

here's some help tho, it isn't a 1:1 ratio. a 10% increase in mass wouldn't quite yield a 10% increase in threshold power. it's closer to half of that.

also, I crunched some numbers for the Tyler Hamilton quote up thread b/c I found it interesting. I'd say the difference in performance benefit b/t losing 3 lbs (1.36 kg) vs an increase of 3 to hematocrit is pretty similar. there's an enormous amount of "slop" in my calculations (b/c Hamilton is imprecise) but they favored the weight loss VERY slightly.

losing weight would be risk averse which could make it the obvious choice. at the same time, losing 3 lbs from an already lean athlete while maintaining power would be a lot harder than microdosing with edgar.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

we (JV included) have discussed exactly this topic. You're welcome to search for it cus I don't really care that much.

Thats fine - also this is not really the thread for it, but I can search it myself, as I do remember that it was discussed, but not the details.

here's some help tho, it isn't a 1:1 ratio. a 10% increase in mass wouldn't quite yield a 10% increase in threshold power. it's closer to half of that.

also, I crunched some numbers for the Tyler Hamilton quote up thread b/c I found it interesting. I'd say the difference in performance benefit b/t losing 3 lbs (1.36 kg) vs an increase of 3 to hematocrit is pretty similar. there's an enormous amount of "slop" in my calculations (b/c Hamilton is imprecise) but they favored the weight loss VERY slightly.

losing weight would be risk averse which could make it the obvious choice. at the same time, losing 3 lbs from an already lean athlete while maintaining power would be a lot harder than microdosing with edgar.

Thanks.

 

[lean mean &green]

Thanks.

also, I think a 10% increase in mass is really pushing the boundary of what you could squeak past the passport but I don't feel like re-reading the source material so...

...hypothetically speaking, if a 10% increase in mass could yield a 5% increase in threshold power from say 6 w/kg to 6.3 w/kg, it's a difference maker.

 

[Race Radio]

Wonder how many riders on BB, motorized bikes, and EPO Ian Stannard beat today?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wonder how many riders on BB, motorized bikes, and EPO Ian Stannard beat today?

All of them.

 

[blackcat]

bb bottom bracket?

 

[blackcat]

also, I think a 10% increase in mass is really pushing the boundary of what you could squeak past the passport but I don't feel like re-reading the source material so...

...hypothetically speaking, if a 10% increase in mass could yield a 5% increase in threshold power from say 6 w/kg to 6.3 w/kg, it's a difference maker.

its a material increase.

see how much the difference between athletes in the olympics in the swimming and track events?

but when it gets to a mano a mano, an intangible 0.01% difference, note, a percent terms difference, so 0.0001 differential can be immaterial to the psychological struggle of hinault and lemond going the head to head, and who will assert will over the other. Now, a major input into this is the biology and FTP, but when there is an almost immaterial difference, then it becomes a battle of wills.

Armstrong never lost this battle.

 

[ralphbert]

Armstrong never lost this battle.

Does Contador 09 count?

My favorite part of "The Armstrong lie"is the hog telling conti not too attack, Armstrong is on the limit. Conti attacks, Armstrong is dropped and the hog is apoplectic. Beautiful.

 

[blackcat]

Does Contador 09 count?

My favorite part of "The Armstrong lie"is the hog telling conti not too attack, Armstrong is on the limit. Conti attacks, Armstrong is dropped and the hog is apoplectic. Beautiful.

touche.

yep, you're on the money.

But Contador had a few VO2 advantages up his sleeve. Ok, he never had the 7 domestiques in his l'equipe, he had zero, only his brother in the car.

 

[ralphbert]

Must have been hard to carry balls that big up the mountains.

 

[ustabe]

I was the first to use that meme here

Do I get a cookie?

If I had one to give . . .

 

[GuyIncognito]

same was bartali or merckx. domination doesn't equal epo

Are you seriously comparing a guy who came out of nowhere to dominate, then disappeared back to anonimity when others also got on the stuff, to people who were consistently at the top for a decade or more?

i don't know for sure of course but i base it on climbing speed/extraterestrial time trials.

Like Bugno's, then.

charly mottet still finished 2nd in that giro. boyer winning stages. so only bugno had the secret? years before everybody?

Not only Bugno, I already mentioned an example of another guy who clearly had it

 

[jens_attacks]

Are you seriously comparing a guy who came out of nowhere to dominate, then disappeared back to anonimity when others also got on the stuff, to people who were consistently at the top for a decade or more?

both his rise and il diablo's in 1990 are exclamation marks in my book too. i would love to know if these were indeed perfected jetfuel machines. the first ones.

anyway the thing is they didn't climb at levels seen in 1993 and after.
actually,van louron 1991 is one of the last human performances in tour's history, with bugno the fastest, averaging only around 5.2 w/kg for 20 minutes. guys like cappuccino, indurain, chozas, fignon,hampsten,mottet below 5. a level so low you won't find on an MTF after 1992.

what was the rider you mentioned? i missed it

are there any strong links regarding bugno and epo in 1990 by the way? besides his sudden rise and domination of 1990-1991?

i wish that commission would work on these things. at least to know who were the first if we can't know who are the last

 

[GuyIncognito]

both his rise and il diablo's in 1990 are exclamation marks in my book too. i would love to know if these were indeed perfected jetfuel machines. the first ones.

I won't say the first ones, but definitely some of the first extreme ones

anyway the thing is they didn't climb at levels seen in 1993 and after.
actually,van louron 1991 is one of the last human performances in tour's history, with bugno the fastest, averaging only around 5.2 w/kg for 20 minutes. guys like cappuccino, indurain, chozas, fignon,hampsten,mottet below 5. a level so low you won't find on an MTF after 1992.

That's normal. It takes time to learn to maximize the effects of a drug.
It's not just 'take it'

what was the rider you mentioned? i missed it

Halupczok

i wish that commission would work on these things. at least to know who were the first if we can't know who are the last

It's established that EPO was used by some in the athletics world champs in the late 80s before any indication we have of cycling use. Who was the first, nobody knows

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

same was bartali or merckx. domination doesn't equal epo
i don't know for sure of course but i base it on climbing speed/extraterestrial time trials.

charly mottet still finished 2nd in that giro. boyer winning stages. so only bugno had the secret? years before everybody?
i think bugno might have used bags but not epo in 1990. from the interviews i've read, he was disappointed with jet fuel generation and his grand tour results after 1992 put him a good light. also fignon's book when he says how he was dropped in 1993 tour and who sees riding along him? bugno

difficult to say if he was an epo pioneer(that would rank him the first in 1990, the first jet fuel wonder). me i'd rather say no.

There is a Dutch book called 'het laatste geel', 'the last yellow', where the 1989 Tour is the key point. Dutch sprinter Matthieu Hermans is quoted there:

Hermans

Former sprinter Hermans had at the time as team physician to the Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, currently the hub of Puerto Operacio, the large blood doping scandal. '' You know who our team was a doctor?'' Asks Hermans at Smeets.

"He knew the product'' to the question whether he has used it himself:.'' It was not forbidden. Let me put it this way: I've committed my sport in a decent way. Can I just say?''

Dutch domestique and national cycling clown Gert Jacobs:

Jacobs

Jacob gives epogebruik bluntly add:'' Yes, I have used EPO. It was not banned and you should ensure that you do not value came over fifty. I did it to make it easier to survive, because I would never be a classification rider, but I could do in a better way finish the Tour.''

http://www.nu.nl/sport/2024923/rooks-geeft-epogebruik-toe.html

A pretty poor google translate but I am too lazy to correct it today, the crux is in Jacobs quote I believe, using it to recuperate better.

So, if these riders had access to the holy grail of blooddoping, I rather say in this case recuperation drug, how farfetched is it that the Chateau d'Ax team had it in 1989/1990? Given the steady rise of a certain Toni Rominger at the same time I would tend to say it is pretty obvious.

Bugno was no donk to racehorse I have to say, just like Indurain, but he had enough chemical assistence in his veins which robbed Mottet of a GT win.

And I agree with you at the part of jetfuel, I do believe that up till lets say the end of 1992 epo use was fairly conservative - with the exception of Toni Rominger and Chiappuccino -, no crits around 60%, but, when you use it to recuperate better than the ones not on this drug so you can day in day out perform with no weak day there is no equal playing field. So yes, I think Bugno was an epo pioneer.

 

[sniper]

All of them.

+1
10 chars

 

[jens_attacks]

And I agree with you at the part of jetfuel, I do believe that up till lets say the end of 1992 epo use was fairly conservative - with the exception of Toni Rominger and Chiappuccino -, no crits around 60%, but, when you use it to recuperate better than the ones not on this drug so you can day in day out perform with no weak day there is no equal playing field. So yes, I think Bugno was an epo pioneer.

hematocrit was not the most important thing imo. because i could imagine there were guys at beginning of the 90's, end of 80's with hematocrits at more than 60 and they weren't winning shiit and there were some who even died. that's when doctors like ferrari came with brilliant ideas and made unbelievable beasts: epo schedule, massive-massive training, cocktails with hormones,clen,testo. look at gewiss in 94 spring. they are not just some fat fuccs flying, their body is bionic shaped.

i wouldn't say epo was used conservative at the beginning but that in time its use was perfected. for example, ivailo gabrovski i think raced on gogubeli 2012 with a very dangerous hemoglobin but still didn't manage not even a mediocre performance in terms of w/kg.
just like bruyneel would say:

it's not (all) about the hematocrit


me too, i tend to think the same about bugno and chiappucci. still, one of them one of the classiest bike riders ever and the other, one of the craziest attacker of all time. for me of course.

 

[SundayRider]

This is the biggest stumbling block for me. I was prepared to post that I do not think there are any teams with team-instigated / initiated / managed doping programs.

But Mr "Clean" Dr on "Clean team" Garmin freely admits "WE LOOKED INTO HOW TO LEGALLY DOPE OUR RIDERS".

If a so called 'clean team' were looking into something like this one can only imagine what the 'hardcore' teams are doing/looking at doing..

 

[GuyIncognito]

how farfetched is it that the Chateau d'Ax team had it in 1989/1990? Given the steady rise of a certain Toni Rominger at the same time I would tend to say it is pretty obvious.

So Rominger wasn't using EPO in his brilliant 87 and 88 results but was in his reasonable 89 and crap 90? What sense does that make?

It seems far more likely that he started in EPO in 91. He could climb and time trial with the best, but never two days in a row. The 87 Giro especially shows that clearly, he was a handful of seconds off Roche's pink jersey near the end of the three weeks and had been the strongest of the contenders in the climbs and second strongest in the time trial, but the moment they had to do two hard stages in a row he was done.

In 91 he could suddenly do it every day. Now there's a clear EPO effect. He was dominant in all one week stage races and I'd wager he would've given Induráin a serious run at the Tour if he hadn't withdrawn a couple days before the start with a knee injury

Chiapucci's sudden rise was in the end of season italian races of 89 so I'd estimate he started around that time. He had shown a bit but nothing amazing before, but at that time started placing highly out of the blue. But even he isn't a donkey to horse, he had top 10s in Fleche, Paris-Nice, Lombardia and so on. EPO use wasn't refined yet at that point so nobody had yet gone from donkey to racehorse, just good riders to stars.

 

[blackcat]

did anyone hear about Cipo at Tour of Cali (coulda been Hamilton Canada worlds). someone interrupted a harem of his at a hotel, and asked him to sign their Credit Lyonnais Tour de France stuffie stuffed bear anthropomorphised lion.

Cipo signed a set of genitalia onto the lion.

Now, I heard this, I am not sure how many hands and chinese whispers it passed thru, but it could have been rinsed thru all the sino dialects for all I care, albeit, it in the telling becomes kinda inside jokey, but it still rings with joy. And rings true.

If Tiger Woods did a few thousand groupies and Mr Wilt Chamberlin, they would have nuffin on Re Lione. could bottle his sweat as an aphrodisiac

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

If a so called 'clean team' were looking into something like this one can only imagine what the 'hardcore' teams are doing/looking at doing..

If a product is not considered a doping product then it it is not doping. Spin it all you want.

 

[blackcat]

I dont think Garmin are doing that. They just give their athletes a wide berth, and dont bring heat. unless they get numbers like sky rider like JTL. JTL, thats a no no. and I dont even mean hyophenating your name in faux aristocracy nor acronym'ing

 

[jens_attacks]

If a so called 'clean team' were looking into something like this one can only imagine what the 'hardcore' teams are doing/looking at doing..

the mind boggles a little bit doesn't it?
imagine what mikhailov does. perfusions with plutonium

 

[SundayRider]

If a product is not considered a doping product then it it is not doping. Spin it all you want.

How can something like that not be banned? It's ridiculous.