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Dear Father Christmas

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hektoren said:
I spent the better part of the summer of 1983 in Dokumentationszentrum Wittgenstein in Kirchberg am Wechsel, while my actress girlfriend studied mime in the Marcel Marceau tradition, and I must say that the "professional" or "standard" translated version you're referring to just isn't correct. He wrote these three sentences in his diary, starting with "An einen Gott glauben..." twice, and in the third sentence he omits the "einen". However, its obvious when looking at the context, that the third sentence doesn't indicate that he's now specfically referring to the christian God; he's referring to faith in general. In Austria and Germany the omitted "einen" is therefore usually put back in. If you won't take my word for it, go to : http://www.zitate-suche.de/glaube.html , or, even better, read the passage in context. It's still a good quote, but it is more generic and doesn't need hijacking by christians, that's all.

Wittgenstein lived in a small cabin at a place called Skjolden, Norway 1913-1914, and in the University of Bergen (where I live, and work) we have a Wittgenstein archive that you'll find at http://wab.aksis.uib.no/ If Wittgenstein is at all interesting to you it's a good place to start. I never get to grips with his world view myself, he's just too enigmatic and "dark" for my taste.

As for christmas, I usually sacrifice a goat. ;)

Personally I do not see how "to believe in God etc....." carries a different meaning than "to believe in a God etc....." It's only different if you consider the term 'God' to be a uniquely Christian concept, which I do not, nor do most mainstream Christians nowadays. Wittgenstein's statement would in my opinion be as relevant and profound if read by a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh, as it is with me. I'm certainly not trying to hijack Wittgenstein (how I'm supposed to do that I don't know). I think the wise man himself might say that we're playing a language game of sorts ;)
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Moondance said:
Personally I do not see how "to believe in God etc....." carries a different meaning than "to believe in a God etc....." It's only different if you consider the term 'God' to be a uniquely Christian concept, which I do not, nor do most mainstream Christians nowadays. Wittgenstein's statement would in my opinion be as relevant and profound if read by a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh, as it is with me. I'm certainly not trying to hijack Wittgenstein (how I'm supposed to do that I don't know). I think the wise man himself might say that we're playing a language game of sorts ;)

If you, God forbid :p, was a muslim, you'd probably, even in the queens vernacular, prefer the word Allah, rather than God. 'S all.
God, as opposed to a god, is like Chateau Palmer (1985, if you please) contrasted with "red wine".
 
Nov 21, 2009
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Moondance said:
Personally I do not see how "to believe in God etc....." carries a different meaning than "to believe in a God etc....."

... I think the wise man himself might say that we're playing a language game of sorts ;)

To believe in a God -> observer
To believe in God -> believer

An important distinction, I think. It's not a language game. Your quote badly misrepresented the "wise man"
 
Jun 10, 2009
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May 18, 2009
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Lol, how fitting that the conversations has gone from belief in deities to guns. Lets just not combine the two (uh oh).

What do i want for christmas? A lovely TT bike which i can leave in the shed for most of the year, and pull out and make everyone jelous for the three times it gets wheeled out every year (something i could never buy myself). Also a new rear rim for my tubs after i ruined the last one.
 
Tranquil said:
To believe in a God -> observer
To believe in God -> believer

An important distinction, I think. It's not a language game. Your quote badly misrepresented the "wise man"

I quoted Wittgenstein directly, nor did I take him out of context. The quote is taken from a professionally published English translation of Wittgenstein's work, if I misquote him, than write to the publisher.

Secondly, I see no distinction whatsoever. If the first implies belief same as the second, whatever version that set of beliefs may take.
 
Nov 21, 2009
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Moondance said:
I quoted Wittgenstein directly, nor did I take him out of context. The quote is taken from a professionally published English translation of Wittgenstein's work, if I misquote him, than write to the publisher.

Secondly, I see no distinction whatsoever. If the first implies belief same as the second, whatever version that set of beliefs may take.

You take no responsibility for misquoting him ... even though you did. By my standards, that would warrant an apology to him (not me). I live by a strict moral code which is based around Christianity, but applied more consistently than that managed by the usual follower like you.
 

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Dear Santa,

Yesterday I went to the bike shop and told the owner that my wife thought my TREK bike was ugly.
He undraped a Colnago President Campi Record 10speed my size 60cm.
Could you please contact the cozy beehive -David Walsh and let them know that if you bring me that new Colnago w/Campi equipment I will jump upon the Lance Hating Bandwagon. I will be on the soap box at Traffalgar Square denouncing Lances' existence.
In the name of the J-man AMEN.

FLICKER---_Man-*****._______________
 
A

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Dear Santa. My dream bike would be a Pinarello Dogma 60.1. But we both know that in real life, I'm too huge to ride one. The present that could help turn my life around is the decidedly non-sexy Supersized Time Of Your Life, in basic black so as not to attract any more attention than necessary. It would be a great way to start a new year.

Happy Holidays, Everyone.
 
Tranquil said:
You take no responsibility for misquoting him ... even though you did. By my standards, that would warrant an apology to him (not me).I live by a strict moral code which is based around Christianity, but applied more consistently than that managed by the usual follower like you.

Making value judgments like this even though you know nothing about me is not what I would consider justifiable. You may be right about your assertion concerning me, and you may not be right, but that is for neither of us to say. I am not a Christian (although I do know many who do) who claims moral superiority over all those who do not share their view of what morality is, or what values they have, religious or otherwise. Suffice it to say that I am somewhat taken aback by your attacks on my character. I am also amused somewhat by your claim that I am a 'usual follower' of Christianity, but it does go to show how little you know about me.

Secondly, you rejected the fact that this is a language game from the onset. I feel it serves to highlight Wittgenstein's concept of of a language games quite well. We have different backgrounds, you and I, and were raised in a different ways, as such complex words like 'God' or 'belief' will never hold the same meaning for me as they do for you. Words can never be considered neutral or impartial. We cannot separate our meanings because they have been so deeply ingrained into both yourself and myself.

I am however, perfectly willing to change the quote. To me, both versions carry the same meaning. If I have made this gross error of intellectual dishonesty in your eyes, all I can say that it was not conscious effort on my part to distort his meaning to suit whatever agenda you perceive me to have. I took it from somewhere where I read it without thinking to much about the source of the translation. For this I will apologize.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Moondance said:
Making value judgments like this even though you know nothing about me is not what I would consider justifiable. You may be right about your assertion concerning me, and you may not be right, but that is for neither of us to say. I am not a Christian (although I do know many who do) who claims moral superiority over all those who do not share their view of what morality is, or what values they have, religious or otherwise. Suffice it to say that I am somewhat taken aback by your attacks on my character. I am also amused somewhat by your claim that I am a 'usual follower' of Christianity, but it does go to show how little you know about me.

Secondly, you rejected the fact that this is a language game from the onset. I feel it serves to highlight Wittgenstein's concept of of a language games quite well. We have different backgrounds, you and I, and were raised in a different ways, as such complex words like 'God' or 'belief' will never hold the same meaning for me as they do for you. Words can never be considered neutral or impartial. We cannot separate our meanings because they have been so deeply ingrained into both yourself and myself.

I am however, perfectly willing to change the quote. To me, both versions carry the same meaning. If I have made this gross error of intellectual dishonesty in your eyes, all I can say that it was not conscious effort on my part to distort his meaning to suit whatever agenda you perceive me to have. I took it from somewhere where I read it without thinking to much about the source of the translation. For this I will apologize.

To the pleasure of this forum, I suggest we lay this side-thread to rest. I've got no personal grudge against anybody, and have no need to point a quivering finger at anybody. My only motivation was (since I know a few bits and bobs about him) to point out that Wittgenstein talked about the function of religion, and not singling out one religion to the exclusion of others. He was very PC, in other words, unlike Swiss referenda these days!!

In keeping with the main subject of this thread: Here's No.1 on my wishlist:
https://www.srm.de/store/product_in....html&XTCsid=77f749e73036acac283d05bb8c5fe823
 
Dec 14, 2009
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krebs303 said:
Solar panels electric and water. Like to try and live life off the griTo the pleasure of this forum, I suggest we lay this side-thread to rest. I've got no personal grudge against anybody, and have no need to point a quivering finger at anybody. My only motivation was (since I know a few bits and bobs about him) to point out that Wittgenstein talked about the function of religion, and not singling out one religion to the exclusion of others. He was very PC, in other words, unlike Swiss referenda these days!!
d. Oh yeah an Endless Pool would be real nice.

To the pleasure of this forum, I suggest we lay this side-thread to rest. I've got no personal grudge against anybody, and have no need to point a quivering finger at anybody. My only motivation was (since I know a few bits and bobs about him) to point out that Wittgenstein talked about the function of religion, and not singling out one religion to the exclusion of others. He was very PC, in other words, unlike Swiss referenda these days!!
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Moondance said:
Dear Santa,

Please F@ck off, so we can actually go back to what Christmas is all about; the birth of Jesus, the importance of family and not this crass materialism.

I thought Christmas was about the early church creating a holiday to compete with the mid winter pagan celebrations.

And oh yes, I want a set of Hed Ardennes wheels.
 

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