Denis Menchov v Cadel Evans

[craig1985]

Probably the equivalent of bashing my head up against a rock, but here goes. Menchov will finish his career with at least three Grand Tour wins (admittedly his first was by default), and so far Evans has none, but does this mean Menchov is a better rider then Evans, or just been more luckier (or had a better program)? I don't really see a great deal between the two. Both are strong TT riders, and both are not explosive climbers like Contador, so if they both tried riding in a similar fashion, it would not work for them, and only lose time. Evans is certainly a better one day rider though and has bike handling skills that Menchov could only dream about.

I don't want this to turn into a ACF v Dutch/Rabobank fans, but we can have a solid discussion.

Vote in the poll.

 

[The Hitch]

I think Evans has been the better rider overall because he has done well in 1 day races but
1 He has had worse teams (his fault i know).
2 He has targeted the wrong gc's.
3 He might just be slightly worse in the 3rd week of gc's.

Also i think the world championship is as big as a gc so evans wont retire empty handed.

 

[delbified]

evans has run within a bees **** of beating contador at the tour which places him in rare company. he doesn't get a trophy for that but in real terms he's elite.

 

[Greenflame]

I think Menchov is perhaps the only one who can threaten Contador in a GT. That is, if Menchov is as strong as he was last year in the Giro, the parcours is suited for Menchov and he doesn't fall off his bike. A long shot, I know, especially that last bit. Still, Menchov is a really strong rider, stronger than Evans imo. Evans is weaker in the GT's but much stronger in pretty much all other races.

And btw, BMC does look pretty good for this Tour. If Evans would have focused completely on the Tour he would have had a great team supporting him, not necessarily weaker than Astana for instance.

 

[Moondance]

Evans is the better rider in terms of ability, and certainly consistency, but Menchov has the more impressive resume.

 

[Von Mises]

I think Evans has been the better rider overall because he has done well in 1 day races but
1 He has had worse teams (his fault i know).
2 He has targeted the wrong gc's.
3 He might just be slightly worse in the 3rd week of gc's.

Also i think the world championship is as big as a gc so evans wont retire empty handed.

+1
Evans is in mind better rider in terms of ability, but he is weaker in terms of psychology, tactics, strategy and team choice.

 

[python]

personally i think evans is a more talented rider but menchov has more smarts and enough talent to accumulate better gc palmeras.

by smarts i mean several things including one that belongs on another forum. i believe it was smart of him to not sign with the russian team and stay with rabo. i still don’t understand how the guy ticks, he's so quiet.

 

[craig1985]

I wouldn't be surprised if Menchov is riding for Katusha next season.

 

[unsheath]

3 He might just be slightly worse in the 3rd week of gc's.

Probably the most important point raised in this thread and perhaps better argued in the clinic..

 

[hrotha]

It's impossible to compare them by speculating about Clinic-related stuff. As things stand right now, there is no contest. Menchov is a better GT rider.

Evans is better at other races but that's not his focus either.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Menchov, for getting more out of less.

There isn't much between them, so I would normally lean towards Evans as the rider who has more natural ability and a broader range (stage races + classics and day races).

But since Evans has spent a career chasing a single goal and failed so far in achieving that goal, one that Menchov has accomplished multiple times on a team of similar strengths and weaknesses, Menchov, to me, is undeniably the "better" one of the two.

A side note is that this year I am enjoying Cadel more than I ever did, and Menchov has been nigh invisible since the Giro last year. But one season doesn't make me judge careers very differently. "No?"

I find the "luck" factor over a career a mute point. You even make your own luck to some extent. Menchov has shown more skill at grabbing (and creating those) opportunities.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

As an overall rider Evans is better.

As a GC-rider, Menchov is, hands down, better. Evans simply doesn't have it in a 3rd week.

 

[Ferminal]

Often ran it over in my head...

Menchov in the fact that he has won three GTs, plus a stack of GT stage wins.

Evans has what... 3 GT podiums, 2 stage wins, a Romandie and some stage race podiums, a worlds, a fleche.

History will be kinder to Menchov, if their careers ended now. 3 GTs is wonderful achievement achieved by so few.

Evans deserves credit for his consistency over the latter half of his career and strong year round performances, reflected in his rankings.

 

[cyclingmad]

Probably the two most boring GT riders in the peloton. Menchov was a little smarter, poker faced and a little more aggressive prior to this year. Evans has changed a bit this year but in the Giro seem to start making a lot of the same old mistakes like losing his cool on a flat stage, hanging on the climbs till he blew and then paying the price for efforts as the race went on.
Prior to this year definitely Menchov was better and has 3 grand tour wins Evans barely won any big stage races or any stages for that matter. Evans might be better this year but would probably still pick Menchov to beat him in the tour just because of a more effective stage racing strategy

 

[BroDeal]

Menchov is a better GT rider.

When has Menchov ever beat Evans in a GT??

 

[Delicato]

2007 Vuelta?

 

[Anonymous]

Both fall off their bikes a lot. So there's that.

 

[Moondance]

When has Menchov ever beat Evans in a GT??

2007 Vuelta. Menchov won and Evans finished 4th.

Menchov is better because he has won more. Like someone has said above, the biggest stage race win Evans has to his name is the Tour de Romandie, Menchov has two Vuelta and a Giro, and a win in the Basque Country. I'd say that's pretty decisive in terms of results.

 

[BroDeal]

2007 Vuelta?

After Evans came in second in the TdF. The 2007 was also the worst GT courses of recent memory until the 2009 TdF came along.

Menchov does not time trial as well as Evans. He does not climb as well as Evans. He has been smart enough (or his team has allowed him) to target GTs other than the Tour. Evans has the misfortune of coming so close to winning the Tour that he kept chasing that white whale when he could have been winning other GTs. Menchov has not had that problem because his Tour performance has never lived up to the hype.

 

[hrotha]

I think everybody including Evans himself overestimate his TT skills, which is why he lost the 2008 Tour if you ask me.

Menchov at his best is a better climber than Evans and not a much worse time trialer. He's also won 3 GTs, which I'd say makes him a better GT rider than someone who has never won one.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Probably the two most boring GT riders in the peloton.

Leipheimer?

Anyway, I'd say they are two comparable talents. Very similar ability levels. Evans shades it because Menchov's never really shown any aptitude in single-day racing and Evans has the Worlds and Flèche. Evans' bloody-minded resoluteness in not flinching from his Tour de France dream is what gives Menchov the edge at the moment, because Menchov has been able to target the races he can win, and win them. The debate is similar to a recent one about Beloki vs. Savoldelli, who will be remembered better? The answer is Savoldelli, because people can just look in the record books and see Savoldelli's two GT wins. You'd have to dig into the races to find Beloki. It doesn't mean Savoldelli was a better rider, but people remember the stuff that's right in their faces more than they remember the stuff that they have to dig for. And if they were to retire tomorrow, when people in 20-30 years look back in the record books, they'll see Denis Menchov's name three times in the annals of GT winners, and not see Cadel's name, so Menchov will be easier for them to recall. History won't record that Cadel came 2nd because of terrible luck, or that he was 3rd in the Vuelta mainly because of a puncture and sulking for the rest of the race rather than trying to gain time back. It will record simply that he came 2nd or 3rd. Likewise, the record books won't record that the 2007 Vuelta parcours was garbage, it will just record that Menchov won the event.

 

[ttrider]

Menchov is a better tt than Evans! Certainly now Evans in my opinion was only ever good in tts in 2007
Climbing is a tough one but Evans has never one a mountain GT stage! So its definitely Menchov
Cadel is only better downhill so overall it is Menchov by a distance 3-0 is an accurate reflection and i can only see Menchov pulling away

 

[perico]

Leipheimer?

Anyway, I'd say they are two comparable talents. Very similar ability levels. Evans shades it because Menchov's never really shown any aptitude in single-day racing and Evans has the Worlds and Flèche. Evans' bloody-minded resoluteness in not flinching from his Tour de France dream is what gives Menchov the edge at the moment, because Menchov has been able to target the races he can win, and win them. The debate is similar to a recent one about Beloki vs. Savoldelli, who will be remembered better? The answer is Savoldelli, because people can just look in the record books and see Savoldelli's two GT wins. You'd have to dig into the races to find Beloki. It doesn't mean Savoldelli was a better rider, but people remember the stuff that's right in their faces more than they remember the stuff that they have to dig for. And if they were to retire tomorrow, when people in 20-30 years look back in the record books, they'll see Denis Menchov's name three times in the annals of GT winners, and not see Cadel's name, so Menchov will be easier for them to recall. History won't record that Cadel came 2nd because of terrible luck, or that he was 3rd in the Vuelta mainly because of a puncture and sulking for the rest of the race rather than trying to gain time back. It will record simply that he came 2nd or 3rd. Likewise, the record books won't record that the 2007 Vuelta parcours was garbage, it will just record that Menchov won the event.

It will also leave out the fact that his first victory in the Vuelta was not decided on the road, but by default after Heras was DQ'd. It's not like he was the dominant rider of that particular race.

 

[hrotha]

The debate is similar to a recent one about Beloki vs. Savoldelli

While what you say is true and Savoldelli will ultimately be remembered as the better rider, the gap between Beloki's and Savoldelli's abilities was greater in favour of Beloki than the gap between Evans's and Menchov's - especially since, as I said, I think the gap favours Menchov, not Evans.

 

[richo36]

By stats, menchov will be in 20 to 30 years viewed as the better rider. But i dont know, It depends what you rate higher, Cadel 2x2nd place tdf or menchovs 2xvueltas. Cadels worlds and fleche or menchovs giro win. I think they are very similar and the only thing that separates them is that menchov is smarter. Like everyone is saying cadel has alittle more natural ability but isnt as smart wen racing and picking his races.