Denis Menchov v Cadel Evans

[auscyclefan94]

gezz you have it in for evans... wonder if he was from wales you would be saying this

Don't worry, they don't know God so they have to hate it. Because their hero sucks so much they have to try to bring down other posters heroes. If i was not on here they would not dispise him so much because i pull them up on there lies.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Haha, nut-job Evans fans are always entertaining

So are the haters!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Your logic is a fallacy. Like it or not, waiting around for over a minute, hammering to catch up, overcooking yourself ever so slightly and having to slow down impacted that stage and the overall.

Whether or not the puncture cost Evans the win or even second place, no one will actually know. That said, it is most unfortunate that the wheel change sucked as bad as it did because it had such an impact. I would have much preferred a close battle between Valverde, Evans, and S2.

If you read the rest of that debate you'll see me acknowledge that there's more to it than the simplistic hammering of the time (plus isso pointing out that the actual time he lost waiting was 29", not "over a minute", and the rest of the time loss was the result of the hammering to catch up). But the point is, it is totally inaccurate to state as if it were fact that he lost the Vuelta because of that puncture. We have no idea if he would have finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd because of that. I also don't think the wheel change necessarily had that much of an effect; certainly I can understand why Evans lost time on La Pandera (though Sánchez, who spent more time solo, actually gained time on Valverde there - though Evans has always had a tendency to hang on longer than he should rather than ride his own tempo and limit losses, and perhaps that was the same again) and that that may have been contingent on the previous day's events, but there were options for attacking between then and the end of the race, and Evans was still only 2 minutes down. But he didn't even try. Yes, it would have been a better race with all 3 within a minute. I assume. But the statement was that Evans would have won without the puncture. That, we simply do not know and cannot state with any level of certainty.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Menchov has 3 Grand Tour titles. How many has Cadel got, again?

Unless you think winning 3 GTs is of less value than winning a solitary rainbow jersey, there can be only one possible, objective opinion.......
...........unfortunately.

 

[cyclingmad]

If we're going to do some revisionist history, then perhaps this is an interesting example for those who say "Evans always stronger at the Tour". Bear in mind I still believe Evans is the superior rider of the two.

I would like you to cast your minds back to July of 2008. The final GC of the Tour read:

1. Sastre
2. Evans, + 0:58
3/4. Menchov, + 2:10 (3rd or 4th is depending on whether you elevate Menchov following Kohl's DQ)

Evans beats Menchov by more than a minute.... Solid work by Cadel you'd say. But where does Cadel's time gain come from?

Cadel 'won' 38 seconds from Menchov when a crash in stage 3 caused splits in the peleton, and (if my memory serves me right) it was Quick-Step and Liquigas drove the 1st peloton home HARD. Cadel won time, but wasn't the better cyclist.

Cadel also took 35 seconds off Menchov in the final descent to Jausiers on stage 15. Now, descending is clearly a skill in cycling, and Menchov's horrible-ness downhill should not be excused. But I doubt anyone would make the argument that Evans was 'stronger' in an objective sense that day because of it.

So take the 38 and 35 seconds Menchov losts to Evans (and Sastre) on those two stages.... And what does the new GC look like:

1. Sastre
2. Menchov, + 0:57
3. Evans, + 0:58

Revisionist history is fun.

This ignores the impact of Menchovs uphill attack where he crashed as well which also an unpredictable amount of time.

Evans makes a lot of excuses and Evans fans on this forum make lots of excuses for not winning. Ignoring all the excuses and what might have been Evans has a better TDF record than Menchov no question. Evans is a better bike handler no question.

In terms of tours generally Menchov has a better record and has overall wins and TT wins Evans does not seem to have that.
Evans has focused a lot on the TDF, Menchov hasn't picked and chosen races apart from last year he usually had the biggest number of racing days out of the top 5-10 tour guys.

Comparing head to head just on Time Trialling even in the TDF Menchov has a better record where Evans only had the edge in 2007. Menchov subsequently was much stronger in the Vuelta the same year. This is the only year I remember Evans being really dominant in TTs.

Menchov also tends to win TTs in the tours eg Giro last year, Vuelta 2007, Evans places high but doesn't dominate which is why he hasn't had the wins. Menchov is the better TT slightly but neither dominate TTs enough while they both hang well in the mountains but need to dominate TTs to win the stage races. For this reason every year both are really only looking at top 5 places rather than a chance to win.

Menchovs record in TDF is affected by crashes illness and these kind of factors as much or more than Evans but this is an English speaking forum so there is more discussion about what might have been for him. To win the TDF you have to be dominant enough to limit the impact of your bad days and bad luck and neither Evans nor Menchov is at a level they can do that

 

[auscyclefan94]

Well If we are talking about results then probably Menchov. Cadel would definetly want expect 1 or 2 more Gt's to his name and possibly a classic. Physiologically (sorry about spelling) Evans would most likely be the better.

 

[Jan the Man]

Well If we are talking about results then probably Menchov. Cadel would definetly want expect 1 or 2 more Gt's to his name and possibly a classic. Physiologically (sorry about spelling) Evans would most likely be the better.

I haven't seen any physiological data to distinguish either man.

GT wise Menchov is superior. One day races Evans is superiro. Evans is more consistant than Menchov but Menchov's good days are better than Evans' good days.

Overall I think Menchov has the better palmares. Who is the better rider is subjective.

 

[richo36]

I got a question, i wanna know what everyone thinks

What do you see as the greater result, 2x2nd TDF or 2x1st Vuelta??????

 

[Jan the Man]

I got a question, i wanna know what everyone thinks

What do you see as the greater result, 2x2nd TDF or 2x1st Vuelta??????

I think winning multiple GT is better than runner up in multiple GT.

 

[sagard]

No horse in this race. Is avoiding crashing/crashes and being on the right side of a split not a skill?

 

[jaylew]

I got a question, i wanna know what everyone thinks

What do you see as the greater result, 2x2nd TDF or 2x1st Vuelta??????

I really love the Vuelta, but 2 x 2nd at the TDF is more impressive in my opinion. The 2 Vuelta wins would look terrific on your palmares, but the 2 Tour 2nds would be harder to achieve.

I would probably rather have the two Vuelta wins, but the question was which is the greater result.

Ok, a slight exaggeration but who had the greater result this year, Butler or Dayton? Sorry, many of you won't get that last reference.

 

[theyoungest]

I really love the Vuelta, but 2 x 2nd at the TDF is more impressive in my opinion. The 2 Vuelta wins would look terrific on your palmares, but the 2 Tour 2nds would be harder to achieve.

I would probably rather have the two Vuelta wins, but the question was which is the greater result.

Ok, a slight exaggeration but who had the greater result this year, Butler or Dayton? Sorry, many of you won't get that last reference.

It's not like Evans didn't want to win the Vuelta, or didn't try... he just couldn't. He could finish 2nd in the Tour, however. So I don't know what's the greatest accomplishment.

 

[jaylew]

I wasn't even thinking about Evans or Menchov or anyone else. I had actually forgotten what thread I was in when I wrote my response. I was simply answering the question.

 

[Ripper]

If you read the rest of that debate you'll see me acknowledge that there's more to it than the simplistic hammering of the time (plus isso pointing out that the actual time he lost waiting was 29", not "over a minute", and the rest of the time loss was the result of the hammering to catch up).

Oops, my bad on the first part , apologies!

About the time loss, I think issoisso is incorrect and may have just seen a clip. I recalled the gap being about a minute and just re-checked and it was about a minute from stop to push off. Of course, you can add another 10 second penalty for a really obvious and stupid bottle sling.

As far as the Evans and Menchov comparison, I find Evans much more entertaining, for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is how some folks seem to just love him, and others just cannot stand him

FWIW I actually think the two 2nd place rides in the TDF are more important that the two Vueltas that Menchov has.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Soooo.

Menchov was virtually invisible in the main group but that was a good thing.

Evens was fantastic and even tried to attack a few times at the last km.

They both had one teammate left up there in the mountains (if i'm not mistaken, correct me if i do).
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tits Webcams

 

[ericthesportsman6]

Soooo.

Menchov was virtually invisible in the main group but that was a good thing.

Evens was fantastic and even tried to attack a few times at the last km.

They both had one teammate left up there in the mountains (if i'm not mistaken, correct me if i do).

Were we watching the same race? Evans (and Menchov) was in pure survival mode.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Were we watching the same race? Evans (and Menchov) was in pure survival mode.

Which means they that was a tie between these two.

A tie between Menchov and Evens.

Now look up and note the name of the thread: "Menchov vs Evens". That's what i am talking about. About "Menchov vs Evens".

And struggling but in the end staying in the same elite group as AS, AC is definitely a fantastic ride for both.

Cadel especially with hard fought classics season AND a Giro in his feet he still finds enough strength to attack. Well done. Now go fight with someone or something and make me happy.
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Starcraft 2 replay desync

 

[swuzzlebubble]

They both had one teammate left up there in the mountains (if i'm not mistaken, correct me if i do).

The difference was Cadel’s team-mates were on a different mountain. So he did better on that basis, fwiw, nrn.

 

[theyoungest]

Which means they that was a tie between these two.

A tie between Menchov and Evens.

Now look up and note the name of the thread: "Menchov vs Evens". That's what i am talking about. About "Menchov vs Evens".

And struggling but in the end staying in the same elite group as AS, AC is definitely a fantastic ride for both.

Cadel especially with hard fought classics season AND a Giro in his feet he still finds enough strength to attack. Well done. Now go fight with someone or something and make me happy.

No it's not. The guy's name is Evans. Evans.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

No it's not. The guy's name is Evans. Evans.

You've ruined it.

I was hoping to see ACF first calling all plagues of Egypt on me for this, in huge red letters, and now you come and spoil it all.
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Kitchen Measures

 

[Cerberus]

No it's not. The guy's name is Evans. Evans.

On the subject of Evans name the first year I noticed him in the Tour was from the commentators talking about him. I was really puzzled about that rider being called "Cat 11".

 

[ericthesportsman6]

Which means they that was a tie between these two.

A tie between Menchov and Evens.

Now look up and note the name of the thread: "Menchov vs Evens". That's what i am talking about. About "Menchov vs Evens".

And struggling but in the end staying in the same elite group as AS, AC is definitely a fantastic ride for both.

Cadel especially with hard fought classics season AND a Giro in his feet he still finds enough strength to attack. Well done. Now go fight with someone or something and make me happy.

I wasn't trolling; it's simply called disagreeing.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

I wasn't trolling; it's simply called disagreeing.

I was asking Evens to go to fight someone.

I'm sorry and no offense but i couldn't care less about what you do.
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Avandia heart attack

 

[Pedaaldanser]

Menchov always starts the tour to try to win it, it's Rabobank's main focus of the season. He never managed so far.

Evans also always starts the tour to try to win it, but he also never managed so far.

While being second in the tour is better than being ranked lower, it's ultimately about the victory so I think Menchov is more satisfied with his other GT wins.

I find it hard to declare which of them is physiologically stronger since they neither of them is better in all of the many different aspects of cycling. Therefore I think Menchov is the better rider based on the quality of his victories, because that's the most objective measurement of a rider's abilities that I can come up with.