di Luca

[Big_Blue_Dave]

BigBoat, you constantly make posts about how everyone uses doping products or using added blood in their bodies to make them go much faster.

You write giving constant conjecture and only use scientific values, though without any actual sources, of convicted dopers. If you have proof of riders actually doping, take it to the necessary authorities, and don't just say so-and-so dopes, ergo the rest dope too.

Before you say i'm deluded and living in cloud cuckoo land, I do believe that there are still some riders that think they can cheat the system and continue to use illegal practices, be it homologous blood transfusions or drug programs. The only difference is I certainly don't know who is using and who is not, so will not make statements that I think a certain rider is cheating.

Its all well and good that you can come on here, behind a pseudonym and write whatever you want without the fear of any form of reprisals from libel suits by any riders you offend, because i'm sure that if any of them knew who you were and read this forum, you would by now have more than a few on tap at the moment.

It would be nice, not for me, but for every other person who uses this forum if you did tone down your constant posts on doping simply because, although its a place where free speech can be practiced, we do not want to abuse it to the level that we become much more stringently moderated and really have to watch what we say with the possibility of having are words edited, removed, or at worst case having your profile deleted from the system because I have been a member of forums in which that has happened and the fun element that this place has just completely disappeared within weeks.

Controversy has a time and a place, with being funny too, just try not to overuse it, is what I guess i'm trying to say.

 

[elapid]

BigBoat, you constantly make posts about how everyone uses doping products or using added blood in their bodies to make them go much faster.

You write giving constant conjecture and only use scientific values, though without any actual sources, of convicted dopers. If you have proof of riders actually doping, take it to the necessary authorities, and don't just say so-and-so dopes, ergo the rest dope too.

Before you say i'm deluded and living in cloud cuckoo land, I do believe that there are still some riders that think they can cheat the system and continue to use illegal practices, be it homologous blood transfusions or drug programs. The only difference is I certainly don't know who is using and who is not, so will not make statements that I think a certain rider is cheating.

Its all well and good that you can come on here, behind a pseudonym and write whatever you want without the fear of any form of reprisals from libel suits by any riders you offend, because i'm sure that if any of them knew who you were and read this forum, you would by now have more than a few on tap at the moment.

It would be nice, not for me, but for every other person who uses this forum if you did tone down your constant posts on doping simply because, although its a place where free speech can be practiced, we do not want to abuse it to the level that we become much more stringently moderated and really have to watch what we say with the possibility of having are words edited, removed, or at worst case having your profile deleted from the system because I have been a member of forums in which that has happened and the fun element that this place has just completely disappeared within weeks.

Controversy has a time and a place, with being funny too, just try not to overuse it, is what I guess i'm trying to say.

Big_Blue_Dave, you just took a big, huge bite of troll sandwich. No one will stop BigBoat mouthing off the same unsubstantiated drivel on every thread, unless he gets booted off the forum. But, +1 for everything you said!

 

[BigBoat]

This thread was about Di Luca's "over the top" rides.... I commented on all the over the top rides I believe are going on.

So how I am off topic and "trolling" is beyond me.

 

[Snake8]

I put BigBoat on ignore. It's nice! Try it, you'll like it.

Back to DiLuca - I am enjoying his Giro. He is/has been in the front ten since he got the MR. They guy certainly has more panache than the other contenders. Loved seeing him in second wheel on that descent today.

 

[Seth Bullock]

Call me naive or w.e you want, but I try not to worry about every single performance. What is the point of watching or loving cycling if you can't appreciate anything you see? Just do what I do; accept it for what it is. Then if the rider eventually proves to have been doped, you have every right to feel disappointed/outraged/whatever. They're innocent until proven guilty in my eyes.

Agree totally with this. I simply love watching bike racing (and riding my bikes). Sure I see some performances that may raise an eyebrow but this is always totally overshadowed by the simple enjoyment of watching the sport. If I acted otherwise it would come to the point where every race I watched or read about, the winner would be suspect, and what on earth is the point in that? Like Merckx says “innocent until proven guilty”, and isn’t it also plausible that some of these riders who win are actually clean and are riding on sheer guts and determination and that therefore what we are witnessing is an amazing feat of human achievement? Am I bringing a tear to anyone’s eye with that last statement?.... I may be perhaps a tad more naive than some of the other more jaded posters but I prefer to enjoy the spectacle of the race (especially this Giro!) rather than jumping to the doping conclusion every time someone wins or rides well. Stage 10 to Pinerolo was pretty damn exciting to watch – and the site I was streaming from didn’t even have any audio!

 

[elapid]

I'll take a bite now, but BigBoat you believe every ride by a Pro cyclist is over the top. It doesn't matter what the thread is about, you hijack it with the same tiring broad statements. Power measurements, total blood volume, yadda yadda yadda.

Merckx and Seth Bullock, like many of us, still enjoy the magic of a good performance and can appreciate Di Luca's efforts. While you're entitled to your pessimism, I really do not understand why you bother when you are obviously so jaded and dissatisfied with pro cycling.

For me, I enjoy riders like Di Luca who are aggressive and are willing to put everything on the line. He uses tactical skills (no radio), trusts his instincts, and attacks on stages that suit his style and abilities. I would sit up and wonder if he suddenly becomes a good time trialist, but he knows he isn't and that is why he tried to make the most of his opportunities when he could.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

So BigB, do you think Landis was the best rider in the 2006 Tour and unjustly stripped of his title and had it handed to Periero?

How do you watch the sport? I don't deny there is doping, and buy into a lot of your arguments, but I at least see some sense of hope.

And I know you've been watching and seen Cunego dropped on the climbs, almost all of them. And these aren't big mountain passes like Motirolo where he's losing time, they're fairly easy climbs. If he were doping, why not just fully dope up (like DiLuca, Basso, Levi, etc. right?) and go whole hog and try to win the thing? Why only partly dope, and then say you're clean with such conviction and passion?

 

[BigBoat]

So BigB, do you think Landis was the best rider in the 2006 Tour and unjustly stripped of his title and had it handed to Periero?

How do you watch the sport? I don't deny there is doping, and buy into a lot of your arguments, but I at least see some sense of hope.

And I know you've been watching and seen Cunego dropped on the climbs, almost all of them. And these aren't big mountain passes like Motirolo where he's losing time, they're fairly easy climbs. If he were doping, why not just fully dope up (like DiLuca, Basso, Levi, etc. right?) and go whole hog and try to win the thing? Why only partly dope, and then say you're clean with such conviction and passion?

Cunego might be cleaner than he was before but he's not totally clean and not on the Saeco program of speed. He'd doing everything he can, he even said so. Simoni declined too bros.... The "team saeco program" was unique and when they all disbanded they lost something special >> They lost somebody important. Where is he right now? 20th? In Puerto there was 38 implicated and many many more with other doctors and clinics throughout Europe. Maybe 100 total on the ProTour.

What to you is hope bro? No doping? Some riders not being completely jacked? The top races will always, always be determined by doping. As long as big money is involved. When there's no money and no incentive people tend to be honest though (atleast most.) Some guys do have flat egos though and need some jacking! The top cat 1 rider I race with is jacked on epo and I've watched him inject.

Now, I do believe Landis was the best rider of the 2006 Tour besides Basso or Ullrich (if it were not for the F-up on stage 16.) If all the favs had come into that Tour with the packed red cell refills Landis would have not been top 3... Maybe not top 5 but one thing you must consider is that he does not have a dope doctor... Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, etc all had doctors.

You all (the fans) want the sport to be clean. Let me tell you what I think would happen. Landis would win the Tour if everybody was totally clean, he'd be dominating right now and probably would have won 5 Tours. His undoped V02 max was 90 at 18 and that was fresh off the farm from Lancaster. Floyd Landis is a massive talent. There are others that are very talented but Floyd has gotten a lot of scruff over his positive test and his strange exchange with lemond.

 

[benpounder]

Landis would win the Tour if everybody was totally clean, he'd be dominating right now and probably would have won 5 Tours. His undoped V02 max was 90 at 18 and that was fresh off the farm from Lancaster. Floyd Landis is a massive talent. There are others that are very talented but Floyd has gotten a lot of scruff over his positive test and his strange exchange with lemond.

Perhaps next year, ASO should forgo the actual race and award the TdF title based only on some riders O2 capacity when they were 15.

Or maybe they should just give it to Lemond, then Landis, then Lemond, then Landis...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Glad we agree on Floyd. His talent at least. No one left should really believe he was clean, I certainly don't, but I hope some people do see that he was a talented and very strong rider, who had a great strategy in 2006 and rode with a lot of guts, and got a little lucky. It's a shame he and especially his legal team and managers acted like total asses during his hearing and the world crashed down on him, but I'm not surprised, and not going to defend the guy anymore than that.

As to "hope", I'm hoping the sport gets cleaner, and is getting cleaner, and with help might get back to where it was in the 70's and 80's. I also think that as people like you and I put the word out, and pressure mounts, we'll eventually see power outputs as part of profiling, and hopefully hematology blood volume testing, which really would be very, very difficult to beat. The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Keep walking.

One thing I want to disagree with you on, I don't think money would eliminate doping, only curb it. If all the winnings were socialized, and the pay were cheap, guys would still dope/cheat to win, in all sports.

 

[BigBoat]

Perhaps next year, ASO should forgo the actual race and award the TdF title based only on some riders O2 capacity when they were 15.

Or maybe they should just give it to Lemond, then Landis, then Lemond, then Landis...

The rider with a strong team (Phonak), the best talent (V02 max), training, recover ability genetics, and smarts, medical doping support (again money money money) will win the Tour. It takes a big ego though, and arrogance too.

 

[karlboss]

Maybe, maybe not...great racing though

I hear lots of numbers...back them up, quote the journal and/or study...you could well be right bigboat, but until you back these numbers up with something other than anecdotal evidence you'll be viewed as on a rant.

As for Di Luca...the guy has always climbed pretty well, and sprinted much better than other climbers...nothing too surprising yet(doped or not) next to the other favourites. All his time is bonus for winning the stage and only what a sprint has gained against those not sprinting. Down a technical decent a group isn't always faster, riders try to share the load when they should just get behind salvodelli and ollow his lines. I know he's not riding but you know what i mean.

I'm always sceptical maybe they are all doping, it only becomes boring when one guy wins every up hill significantly and all the TTs significantly. I hope the racing stays as open as it is doped or not doped. I'd prefer not doped...one can dream

 

[benpounder]

...the best talent (V02 max)...

VO2 max is important, but it is not the end-all, be-all metric you think it is.

And, using your own logic, the only reason that Phonak was the "best" team that year, was because all of Floyd's lieutenants had to have been jacked. How else could they keep up?

 

[unsheath]

Landis's problems started when he went to Postal and then continued at the Phoney_ak.
The logic of stating that Landis would have won 5 tours with a clean peloton is so far off base its laughable. I suppose you can quote all the Vo2 and blood profiles of all the protour riders to compare to your golden boy then?

As for Di Luca his statements earlier this week alluding to his 'invincibility' and his earlier non repentance about his drug use signifies to me at least where he sits on the doping meter.

 

[franciep10]

Big Boat is either a troll or Dr Ashenden, about Di Luca I will continue with being naive, cycling is much more fun that way, u guy's should try that

 

[jaylew]

BRO, MORE PROOF THEY ARE ALL JACKED!!

A clean rider racing blood doped riders will be dropped and time cut on a super hard stage! Have you ever tried racing guys that are jacked in so much as a flat criterium? Its unreal, you dont have an chance in BLOODY HELL (pun intendend!!) In a mountain stage you'd be 45 minutes + behind atleast. Maybe more. Watch this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLiusWwYXIo

I already explained how they are STILL doing it. There is millions of $$$ on the line! Are they NOT going to do it and loose 45 minutes to somebody that does? No way, no way Alp. Lance even wants more money, everybody does! Money and sex rule people's instinct.

Seriously, WHY do you watch? I'm sure you've been asked this before and Alpe just asked you the same thing. Maybe you've answered somewhere, but I've never seen it. Why do you watch cycling at all?

Is it like watching pro wrestling for you? Do you actually enjoy watching the races or not? I can't tell. Do you feel like it's your mission to convince every cycling fan out there that every rider dopes? I guess I just don't understand the motivation behind your repeated "they're all dopers" rants.

I don't think you're a troll as sometimes you have good, positive things to add - I'm just really curious.

 

[BigBoat]

VO2 max is important, but it is not the end-all, be-all metric you think it is.

And, using your own logic, the only reason that Phonak was the "best" team that year, was because all of Floyd's lieutenants had to have been jacked. How else could they keep up?

Spot on benpound.... Some will say V02 max is not end all and thats true at some lower level. But I will say this >> Its funtional threshold power per kilo that wins the Tour (along with a good medical program, strong strong team, and smarts).

The ceiling for all sustainable power is V02 max... Its very very simple. Now you can get a 1-2% increase from having an efficient pedal stroke, but somebody with a 90 V02 max will ALWAYS beat a guy with an 82 V02 max unless the 90 man was a *** or had a sh$t team. With doped values were looking at a guy with a 95 finishing around 25th or so, and the winner being well over 100.

Now... Its true that the strongest team has a huge advantage and its strength depends on the medical "program." Where they really crank the thermostat is that damned team Time trial... A slower team that cannot blood dope with their own blood (most of the teams can only do this for the top couple of guys) will get their asses kicked for sure.

I hate the TTT in the Tour for this reason, its simply not fair. But... I'd love to do a ttt though! Bring it...ha!

 

[BigBoat]

Seriously, WHY do you watch? I'm sure you've been asked this before and Alpe just asked you the same thing. Maybe you've answered somewhere, but I've never seen it. Why do you watch cycling at all?

Is it like watching pro wrestling for you? Do you actually enjoy watching the races or not? I can't tell. Do you feel like it's your mission to convince every cycling fan out there that every rider dopes? I guess I just don't understand the motivation behind your repeated "they're all dopers" rants.

I don't think you're a troll as sometimes you have good, positive things to add - I'm just really curious.

Jaylew... I actually could not watch the Versus coverage of the Tour of California, I wanted to throw up... And it has nothing to do with the racing but the 45 minutes of commercials to the 15 minutes of coverage... Paris Roubaix was better though!

Pro cycling is under a tough time right now... Pro wrestling is great entertainment, and I think thats where were headed. Okay >> they are still racing racing for real but corruption is everywhere. Thats the sad reality and I honestly feel bad for it. I guess the last year- 2 years I've been on an internet crusade to try and raise awareness on the whole deal. You see, when 2008 rolled around and cycling jumped on the "independent testing" "clean" regime I couldnt stand it because I knew they were all liars. If your doped, you should not say anything... Just say "no comment."

When I guy blasts 35% higher than whats humanly possible and then elaborately shoots his mouth off of how clean he's been, its a slap in the face to all the olympic trials participants, and elite athletes that are clean. And there are even clean cyclists in the olympics road race. There I said it.

 

[franciep10]

Spot on benpound.... Some will say V02 max is not end all and thats true at some lower level. But I will say this >> Its funtional threshold power per kilo that wins the Tour (along with a good medical program, strong strong team, and smarts).

The ceiling for all sustainable power is V02 max... Its very very simple. Now you can get a 1-2% increase from having an efficient pedal stroke, but somebody with a 90 V02 max will ALWAYS beat a guy with an 82 V02 max unless the 90 man was a *** or had a sh$t team. With doped values were looking at a guy with a 95 finishing around 25th or so, and the winner being well over 100.

Now... Its true that the strongest team has a huge advantage and its strength depends on the medical "program." Where they really crank the thermostat is that damned team Time trial... A slower team that cannot blood dope with their own blood (most of the teams can only do this for the top couple of guys) will get their asses kicked for sure.

I hate the TTT in the Tour for this reason, its simply not fair. But... I'd love to do a ttt though! Bring it...ha!

So what's contador's VO2 Max, also why don't you post in any threads that don't talk about doping.

 

[Pietro]

If DiLuca is riding on guts and grinta alone (and not without the help of Dr Santuccione or some other medical stand in) then I'm Gloria Estefan.

Well Gloria, then so is Levi and Basso and all others that have been with DiLuca at the finish.

 

[BigBoat]

So what's contador's VO2 Max, also why don't you post in any threads that don't talk about doping.

Undoped... 88 officially. Doped 98+.

How heavily doped each team or rider is decides the races! Dont you ever wonder why the ability of a rider yo yo's from team to team?

 

[BigBoat]

Well Gloria, then so is Levi and Basso and all others that have been with DiLuca at the finish.

Basso and Levi may or may not be more heavily doped than Di Luca. Levi was a Dr. ferrari cleint, probably still is. Ferrari has "tricks" and "Veys" the other dope consultants dont seem to have.

Its not that you need to justify doping, its how it is. But I like to look at how people win and why people loose.

They all have good talent but Di Luca is heavily jacked.

 

[longrun]

Basso and Levi may or may not be more heavily doped than Di Luca. Levi was a Dr. ferrari cleint, probably still is. Ferrari has "tricks" and "Veys" the other dope consultants dont seem to have.

Its not that you need to justify doping, its how it is. But I like to look at how people win and why people loose.

Exactly. It's part of cycling and as a fan it is interesting to gain an understanding of what athletes are doing to be competitive.

The discussions on forums are always from either a sanctimonious "doping is cheating" point of view, or from a head-in-the-sand "stop talking about doping, can't you let me just enjoy the race" point of view. Neither party understands there are some of us who accept that doping exists and enjoy watching the race, appreciating high level athletes, and wondering about strategy.

 

[Snake8]

Exactly. It's part of cycling and as a fan it is interesting to gain an understanding of what athletes are doing to be competitive.

The discussions on forums are always from either a sanctimonious "doping is cheating" point of view, or from a head-in-the-sand "stop talking about doping, can't you let me just enjoy the race" point of view. Neither party understands there are some of us who accept that doping exists and enjoy watching the race, appreciating high level athletes, and wondering about strategy.

Exactly. Everyone cheats. Show me the man among us that has never cheated and I'll show you a liar.

Wasnt this thread about DiLuca? Cheater and liar? Who cares, I like what I've seen this Giro so far...

 

[idle eric]

If Lucy gets caught again then we can slagg him off but surely he wouldn't be that stupid again. --However he is still a woosh after sunday in milano. --Even if he and the other bits of old Mutton in the peleton conned the Lambs into a rest day.--The Giro now has a moral leader.