Did Sky's stupidity save Contador

Mar 9, 2013
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I mean it is no suprise to me that he is back and the whole team is on a disgusting clinic level he is the best again. Have Sky shot themselves in the foot? De Jnghe as saved Contador's carer most probably.
 
TANK91 said:
I mean it is no suprise to me that he is back and the whole team is on a disgusting clinic level he is the best again. Have Sky shot themselves in the foot? De Jnghe as saved Contador's carer most probably.
If you are asking whether it is thanks to Sky that Contador now has this level, I don't think so. He just does the best with the drugs available to him.
 
Aug 2, 2012
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?

did alberto need saving?..............he has known how to prepare for a long time

Mark L
 
TANK91 said:
I mean it is no suprise to me that he is back and the whole team is on a disgusting clinic level he is the best again. Have Sky shot themselves in the foot? De Jnghe as saved Contador's carer most probably.
Yeah, like in 2014 he was doing really terribly without De Jongh. :rolleyes:

Edit: Well, that was a fail for me as I mistake him for Julich, anyway considering that he joined in 2013, he did not save his career for sure.
 
If what you mean is, "would Contador have been able to mimic Sky's doping if they hadn't fired De Jongh?", I'd say the answer is yes, as it looked like Kreuziger was already doing just that in the 2013 Tour de France
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Yeah, though Sky being innovators of doping is a much more plausible hypothesis than Sky being innovators of training and nutrition, it's still not a particularly plausible hypothesis
 
Feb 10, 2014
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Yes, Saxo have probably found the holy grail that Sky have been drinking of. Or at least solved some of the mystery.

But there is a lot of mutual trade (of information).

Frost and Roche to Sky. De Jongh, Julich, Yates and Rogers to Tinkoff-Saxo.

The question is whether all teams have access to the same goodies. I can't imagine that Lampre or Lotto have access to the same things as the big boys.

I also wonder what the cocktail consists of. It has to be some "next lvl sh#t" they are using. Something not quite as powerful as drugs of the 90's, but way more difficult to trace.
 
May 26, 2009
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Nowhere near going to claim Berto is clean... but:

At the one end we have someone who was on his way to write Merckx out of the books as winning the most GT's ever.

On the other hand we have someone who won one TdF sofar.

The expected situation is that Alberto stomps all over Froome when push comes to shove. Alberto has more talent in his pinky than Froome, which is spelled out by the eye-watering difference in Palmares. The only logical conclusion that when Alberto is fit it's crying time for everyone else, including Froome.

And none of the above has much to do with them being clean. I'm also not buying this magic drug narrative. AFAIK traditional blood vector doping done well is still extremely hard to detect and considering the gains it's still the most effective.

I could be proven wrong, but sso far I'm not convinced yet.
 
Franklin said:
Nowhere near going to claim Berto is clean... but:

At the one end we have someone who was on his way to write Merckx out of the books as winning the most GT's ever.

On the other hand we have someone who won one TdF sofar.

The expected situation is that Alberto stomps all over Froome when push comes to shove. Alberto has more talent in his pinky than Froome, which is spelled out by the eye-watering difference in Palmares. The only logical conclusion that when Alberto is fit it's crying time for everyone else, including Froome.

And none of the above has much to do with them being clean. I'm also not buying this magic drug narrative. AFAIK traditional blood vector doping done well is still extremely hard to detect and considering the gains it's still the most effective.

I could be proven wrong, but sso far I'm not convinced yet.
They ought to give you an award for shrewdness, because this has to be the post of the year so far! :)
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Franklin said:
Nowhere near going to claim Berto is clean... but:

At the one end we have someone who was on his way to write Merckx out of the books as winning the most GT's ever.

On the other hand we have someone who won one TdF sofar.

The expected situation is that Alberto stomps all over Froome when push comes to shove. Alberto has more talent in his pinky than Froome, which is spelled out by the eye-watering difference in Palmares. The only logical conclusion that when Alberto is fit it's crying time for everyone else, including Froome.

And none of the above has much to do with them being clean. I'm also not buying this magic drug narrative. AFAIK traditional blood vector doping done well is still extremely hard to detect and considering the gains it's still the most effective.

I could be proven wrong, but sso far I'm not convinced yet.
rasmussen 2007 begs to differ and i think froome in 2012/13-form would also be right up there.
TUE- and inhaler-gate do seem to have had a bit of a slowing effect on Froome, but i might be wrong.
generally, though, i think i agree, AC is the best of his era.
and in contrast to guys like wiggins, hesjedal and froome, contador always looks lean in a more healthy/natural way. A tad bit higher bodyfat percentage. As if he's not even doping full genius like those sky/garmin riders.
And there's no doubt that he's the more natural climber.
It's just unnatural to see guys like Riis, Wiggins, Hesjedal go uphill like race horses.
 
May 26, 2009
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sniper said:
rasmussen 2007 begs to differ and i think froome in 2012/13-form would also be right up there.
TUE- and inhaler-gate do seem to have had a bit of a slowing effect on Froome, but i might be wrong.

agree wrt blood vector doping still being key.
and in contrast to guys like wiggins, hesjedal and froome, contador always looks lean in a more healthy way. A tad bit higher bodyfat percentage.
2007: Early Alberto and Bruyneel underestimating the lead they could grant Rasmussen. Everyone thought he would fade.
2012: Clen ban
2013: Plagued by physical woes

And yeah, I personally would say that the TUE+Inhaler+Biography fallout broke Froome mentally.

The gist is: Who has been so good at winning GT's even with less than stellar preparation (breaking a leg is less than stellar^^). Moral questions put aside, he's truly up there in the pantheon of greatest GT riders ever. Froome will never get there (he's running out of time).

With the same armament Contador will be destroying any comer untill he becomes to old. I'd say there could be at least two years more in the tank. Hinault was up there till 32 and he certainly did mess up his body quite a bit more (much more racing days, frostbite, riding a knee into smithereens at least twice, probably three times).

Again: No doubt in my mind about Contador being a charger. But to beat him you need either have a truckload of luck or indeed be on another level with dope. I personally do not think Sky was on another level technologically, they just had the bright idea to scoop up a doctor who has an incredible track record on keeping even people as Boogerd, Mencov and Rasmussen negative (and all old-style blood vectoring). I'd say the timing of that hiring and the sudden turn around of success is much to convenient ;)

But had Alberto not been susended the Sky story might never have happened in the first place.
 
May 26, 2009
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sniper said:
rasmussen 2007 begs to differ and i think froome in 2012/13-form would also be right up there.
TUE- and inhaler-gate do seem to have had a bit of a slowing effect on Froome, but i might be wrong.

agree wrt blood vector doping still being key.
and in contrast to guys like wiggins, hesjedal and froome, contador always looks lean in a more healthy way. A tad bit higher bodyfat percentage.
2007: Early Alberto
2012: Clen ban
2013: Plagued by physical woes

And yeah, I personally would say that the TUE+Inhaler+Biography fallout broke Froome mentally.

The gist is: Who has been so good at winning GT's even with less than stellar preparation (breaking a leg is less than stellar^^). Moral questions put aside, he's truly up there in the pantheon of greatest GT riders ever. Froome will never get there (he's running out of time).

With the same armament Contador will be destroying any comer untill he becomes to old. I'd say there could be at least two years more in the tank. Hinault was up there till 32 and he certainly did mess up his body quite a bit more (much more racing days, frostbite, riding a knee into smithereens at least twice, probably three times).

Again: No doubt in my mind about Contador being a charger. But to beat him you need either have a truckload of luck or indeed be on another level with dope. I personally do not think Sky was on another level technologically, they just had the bright idea to scoop up a doctor who has an incredible track record on keeping even people as Boogerd, Mencov and Rasmussen negative (and all old-style blood vectoring). I'd say the timing of that hiring and the sudden turn around of success is much to convenient ;)

But had Alberto not been suspended the Sky story might never have happened.
 
Franklin said:
Check your sources. Contador was plagued by illness in the pre-season.
The sources where Contador claims he had the flu or his allergies were playing up? Sounds like a known liar coming up with excuses to explain his lack of results.

Contador at the 2013 Tour looked like a different rider. Constantly in the saddle on the climbs, having to be paced by Kreuziger most of the time, usually unable to respond to accelerations, etc. To me he looked like a clear case of a rider on a limited/reduced doping program as compared to 2007, 2009, 2014, etc. Even if his training had been affected due illness, I would still expect him to come second and be competitive against Froome.
 
Bronstein said:
Contador was fit (not injured or ill) in 2013, yet he got hammered by Froome.
What a load of crapola. 2013 was the Spaniard's annus horribilus.

Just a summary glance at his status at the Tour immediately reveals that he was overweight and out of form.

I think perhaps that psychologically his ban weighed him down too that year. Even his surprising and rather sensational win the previous year at the Vuelta upon his return, wasn't really enough to boost morale and drive his motivation. Then you throw in the illnesses he had in the spring and, bam, everything unravels.

It was at this time that Froome also came into incredible form, was tremendously motivated and hungry (unlike Contador) to win his first Tour.

If anything it was the beating Chris gave Alberto that was just the wake-up call the Spaniard needed. All of a sudden the king was naked and dethroned. The woes over the ban, must of seemed trivial to being throttled on the bike on the very terrain where he was so used to dishing out the hurt. In fact Alberto has stated that he never received a thrashing like that from any other rider, which is clear acknowledgement of the great impression made.

Perhaps ironically, as it presently seems, that very thrashing has stirred the beast within him and a ferocious desire to reasert his princely sovereignty, and as clearly one of the greatest talents of all time; though given today's hyper-specialized sport, arguably, as far as pure class is concerned, the greatest talent of all time.

I have watched and practiced the sport for nearly thirty years and, as specimens go, I have never seen anyone like Alberto. And I'm not comparing him to the feats of Merkcx or Hinault, for they road in different eras, but the guy has a truly exceptionally powerful and enduring motor. He just exudes class from his very pores and is incredibly spectacular to watch from an aesthetic point of view.
 
Bronstein said:
The sources where Contador claims he had the flu or his allergies were playing up? Sounds like a known liar coming up with excuses to explain his lack of results.

Contador at the 2013 Tour looked like a different rider. Constantly in the saddle on the climbs, having to be paced by Kreuziger most of the time, usually unable to respond to accelerations, etc. To me he looked like a clear case of a rider on a limited/reduced doping program as compared to 2007, 2009, 2014, etc. Even if his training had been affected due illness, I would still expect him to come second and be competitive against Froome.
Do you even understand what being off form and over race weight even means?

Let the program speculation out of the scenario, for even a clean rider can get themselves to proper race weight. From everything the Spaniard has said, his problems in 2013 were as much mental as physical and when the mind isn't in the right place, the body can never be.

While last year he certainly was back to his old self and didn't need a Kreuziger to pace him up the climbs.
 
Franklin said:
2007: Early Alberto and Bruyneel underestimating the lead they could grant Rasmussen. Everyone thought he would fade.
2012: Clen ban
2013: Plagued by physical woes

And yeah, I personally would say that the TUE+Inhaler+Biography fallout broke Froome mentally.

The gist is: Who has been so good at winning GT's even with less than stellar preparation (breaking a leg is less than stellar^^). Moral questions put aside, he's truly up there in the pantheon of greatest GT riders ever. Froome will never get there (he's running out of time).

With the same armament Contador will be destroying any comer untill he becomes to old. I'd say there could be at least two years more in the tank. Hinault was up there till 32 and he certainly did mess up his body quite a bit more (much more racing days, frostbite, riding a knee into smithereens at least twice, probably three times).

Again: No doubt in my mind about Contador being a charger. But to beat him you need either have a truckload of luck or indeed be on another level with dope. I personally do not think Sky was on another level technologically, they just had the bright idea to scoop up a doctor who has an incredible track record on keeping even people as Boogerd, Mencov and Rasmussen negative (and all old-style blood vectoring). I'd say the timing of that hiring and the sudden turn around of success is much to convenient ;)

But had Alberto not been susended the Sky story might never have happened in the first place.
Indeed nobody in 2007 thought Rasmussen would have been at the front of the race in the third week, for which he never should have been alowed the long successful solo break. Contador doesn't have to ride himself into the ground as he did, while he was still considerably young to have the experience to be able to manage the situation better. But you are correct, Bruyneel made a tactical blunder.

2009 was the apotheosis and then, almost as if the cover the UCI had given Armstrong came back to haunt them, Contador was busted for Clen. It then took him the thrashing Froome gave him in 2013 to "snap out of it" and regain the hunger and discipline to be the greatest again.

Unless he gets thrown under the truck, or crashes out, we should be in for a spectacular set of performances.
 

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