dirtiest cheater in cycling history?

[@NL_LeMondFans]

...

Lemond's training partners during that era would say you're wrong.

Don't pin this on me. I'm just echo-ing a rumor that seems to have been circulating in the Belgian/Dutch/American cycling scene. Whether that rumor is right or wrong is another question, but that anonymous whistleblower in that Dutch newspaper article certainly confirmed it.

There may have been some old-fashioned "recovery aids" purchased from the Ensendada drugstores while they trained down there but Epo wouldn't have been one of them.

Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO) and his closeness to known Dutch/Belgian EPO users of the time, I don't see any apriori reason to dismiss the rumor.

He may not have been an absolute angel but he wasn't a mastermind on that account.

We've discussed this many times, but since you bring it up i'll repeat it: Lemond was one of the first (if not the first) pro to insist on bringing his wife to GTs. In addition, his father in law David Morris was a regular part of his entourage during GTs. Now, Morris was an immunologist and ex-surgeon. Morris' daughter, Lemond's wife, in turn, was a nurse who had previously worked for her father's immunology practice.
Just saying, any kind of hypothesis that Lemond transfused or used EPO does not at all depend on him being a mastermind.

Sniper, I have to step in : where did you see Greg's father in law was there regularly ? Kathy was. Greg's parents were. Greg's kids were.

Also : Kathy left the US to follow Greg in Europe when she was 20. I don't know about the US but in France most nurses get their degree at 25, a minority at 21 or 22. Whatever her experience was, I'm not even sure it qualifies for "nurse". Source, please ?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

if you wanna keep the GTs as tough as they are, from a health pov the responsible thing is probably to legalize certain peds in certain quantities and of course under supervision.

Which is exactly what happens. Plenty of substances you could class as PEDs that are not banned that are used throughout the péloton. There's also provisions for unusual health cases, in the oft-abused TUE system.

Just because this outwardly helpful system (allowing some drugs for health reasons, forbidding others for health reasons as well as sporting, allowance of exceptions in medical cases) is being wantonly abused from both sides (who are more often than not doing so in the pursuit of performance, not just to survive the race which is what Maxiton's pseudo-proposal is about here), doesn't mean that the system doesn't exist in the first place.

As SeriousSam pointed out, saying that the sport is so difficult that riders have to dope and therefore we need to make it easier for riders to survive is a case, but that case does not apply in many sports where doping is similarly rife. If what holds for cycling as a justification for wholesale ripping up and starting again doesn't hold for other sports as well, why not?

 

[Echoes]

I'm aware of the substances that are legal while could be classified PED and the substances that are arguably PE but have been or still are classified PED.

But still this sport is not too difficult that riders have to dope, only some races (GT's) are too difficult to be healthy and so difficult that racers who dope have a decisive edge above the others while on other races (classics), clean riders can mix it up with dopers.

I've already told you, Libertine, that a race like Bordeaux-Paris has been particularly linked with doping throughout the years, more than any other races. I have testimonies by Willy Voet and by Émile Masson jr about that. It really was a race of another era. You needed a whole month to prepare it. Voet talks about a Belgian specialist (whom he did not name) who is usually not a PED freak but followed a special prep for Bordeaux-Paris. I guess this is not just due to it being competitive sport, after all Bordeaux-Paris was not a major race after WWII, so normally there should be less doping than on other race but it was such a killer of a race that riders took the syringue. Now Bordeaux-Paris is long gone. So is Paris-Brest-Paris (even longer). The most inhuman classics have disappeared but we are still left with the most inhuman stage races, namely the GT's. Not to mention all the transfers within those GT's, like those you had to do when a Tour of Italy starts in Denmark, in Ireland, in Papua-New-Guinea...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

...

Lemond's training partners during that era would say you're wrong.

Don't pin this on me. I'm just echo-ing a rumor that seems to have been circulating in the Belgian/Dutch/American cycling scene. Whether that rumor is right or wrong is another question, but that anonymous whistleblower in that Dutch newspaper article certainly confirmed it.

There may have been some old-fashioned "recovery aids" purchased from the Ensendada drugstores while they trained down there but Epo wouldn't have been one of them.

Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO) and his closeness to known Dutch/Belgian EPO users of the time, I don't see any apriori reason to dismiss the rumor.

He may not have been an absolute angel but he wasn't a mastermind on that account.

We've discussed this many times, but since you bring it up i'll repeat it: Lemond was one of the first (if not the first) pro to insist on bringing his wife to GTs. In addition, his father in law David Morris was a regular part of his entourage during GTs. Now, Morris was an immunologist and ex-surgeon. Morris' daughter, Lemond's wife, in turn, was a nurse who had previously worked for her father's immunology practice.
Just saying, any kind of hypothesis that Lemond transfused or used EPO does not at all depend on him being a mastermind.

Sniper, I think you might have a misunderstanding of some of the facts you posted above.

1. - Greg was not an anemia patient. Had had low iron stores and took a total of three iron injections. One from Van Mol with journalist Wilcockson in the room. Two from Otto Jacome over the next two weeks as directed by Van Mol.

2. - He's not missing a kidney or anything silly like that. In Greg's own words, he developed his fear of needles because when he was a kid he had recurring kidney infections (a urinary tract infection) and had to get antibiotics injections.

3. - His "entourage" didn't seem to exist. I've yet to see anything that would place David Morris at one of Greg's races. Kathy was around because they moved to France in 1981 when he got his first contract. Not sure how she could've worked at her dad's practice in the US after that...

There's a fantastic interview that would clarify these points further: https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423

Next, when it comes to rumors, you might want to listen to what *everyone* was saying. One one hand you have Armstrong, Dhaenens, Esofosfina (rode for ADR and said 'A - team' went to clinic and everyone was on an anti-depressant/upper), and Echoes who heard a rumor from the manager of an amateur Belgian team.

On the other hand, I'll quote Race Radio who says it best:

"It is usually the same thing.......LeMond doped because well, he just had to have doped, no evidence but yeah he definitely doped.

This stance ignores the people in the know like Laurent Fignon who said it was possible to win clean in the 80s even though he doped himself.

Like Willy Voet who said there were clean top riders like Charly Mottet despite naming countless people who did dope.

Like Paul Koechli, who ran a clean team in Helvetia/La Suiise without any needles and said LeMond won the Tour clean. Before people say that was because he was his manager, Koechli never said Hinault won the tour clean and he was his manager too. Bernard Tapie, owner of the team said the only guys he knew that definitely didnt dope were LeMond and Bauer, not Hinault, not Bernard.

Like Peter Winnen who says it was possible to win clean in the 80s but everything changed with EPO.

I suggest reading Moore's book Slaying the Badger". He talks with many former teammates and staff who tell story after story of how Greg not only rode clean but was vocally anti doping his entire career.

When PDM pushed Greg to dope he worked to get out of his contract
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Saying LeMond doping goes against what many of the key people who were actually in the sport in the 80's think.....even if they doped themselves.

Like Phil Anderson who said



Quote

I recall LeMond’s absolute stance against any medications during his career. He believed he would have won more Tours if it was a level playing field.

He, like many cyclists, has had to deal with losses at the hands of the cheats. He, like many, chose not to take advice and gifts of treatments from soigneur’s ‘vitamins’ – the contents of which were not know to him."

John Swanson

 

[blutto]

...

Lemond's training partners during that era would say you're wrong.

Don't pin this on me. I'm just echo-ing a rumor that seems to have been circulating in the Belgian/Dutch/American cycling scene. Whether that rumor is right or wrong is another question, but that anonymous whistleblower in that Dutch newspaper article certainly confirmed it.

There may have been some old-fashioned "recovery aids" purchased from the Ensendada drugstores while they trained down there but Epo wouldn't have been one of them.

Considering Lemond's medical profile (kidney + anemia patient, i.e. perfect for EPO) and his closeness to known Dutch/Belgian EPO users of the time, I don't see any apriori reason to dismiss the rumor.

He may not have been an absolute angel but he wasn't a mastermind on that account.

We've discussed this many times, but since you bring it up i'll repeat it: Lemond was one of the first (if not the first) pro to insist on bringing his wife to GTs. In addition, his father in law David Morris was a regular part of his entourage during GTs. Now, Morris was an immunologist and ex-surgeon. Morris' daughter, Lemond's wife, in turn, was a nurse who had previously worked for her father's immunology practice.
Just saying, any kind of hypothesis that Lemond transfused or used EPO does not at all depend on him being a mastermind.

Sniper, I think you might have a misunderstanding of some of the facts you posted above.

1. - Greg was not an anemia patient. Had had low iron stores and took a total of three iron injections. One from Van Mol with journalist Wilcockson in the room. Two from Otto Jacome over the next two weeks as directed by Van Mol.

2. - He's not missing a kidney or anything silly like that. In Greg's own words, he developed his fear of needles because when he was a kid he had recurring kidney infections (a urinary tract infection) and had to get antibiotics injections.

3. - His "entourage" didn't seem to exist. I've yet to see anything that would place David Morris at one of Greg's races. Kathy was around because they moved to France in 1981 when he got his first contract. Not sure how she could've worked at her dad's practice in the US after that...

There's a fantastic interview that would clarify these points further: https://www.facebook.com/2Rmag/posts/534227359949423

Next, when it comes to rumors, you might want to listen to what *everyone* was saying. One one hand you have Armstrong, Dhaenens, Esofosfina (rode for ADR and said 'A - team' went to clinic and everyone was on an anti-depressant/upper), and Echoes who heard a rumor from the manager of an amateur Belgian team.

On the other hand, I'll quote Race Radio who says it best:

"It is usually the same thing.......LeMond doped because well, he just had to have doped, no evidence but yeah he definitely doped.

This stance ignores the people in the know like Laurent Fignon who said it was possible to win clean in the 80s even though he doped himself.

Like Willy Voet who said there were clean top riders like Charly Mottet despite naming countless people who did dope.

Like Paul Koechli, who ran a clean team in Helvetia/La Suiise without any needles and said LeMond won the Tour clean. Before people say that was because he was his manager, Koechli never said Hinault won the tour clean and he was his manager too. Bernard Tapie, owner of the team said the only guys he knew that definitely didnt dope were LeMond and Bauer, not Hinault, not Bernard.

Like Peter Winnen who says it was possible to win clean in the 80s but everything changed with EPO.

I suggest reading Moore's book Slaying the Badger". He talks with many former teammates and staff who tell story after story of how Greg not only rode clean but was vocally anti doping his entire career.

When PDM pushed Greg to dope he worked to get out of his contract
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-07-25/sports/sp-95_1_greg-lemond

Saying LeMond doping goes against what many of the key people who were actually in the sport in the 80's think.....even if they doped themselves.

Like Phil Anderson who said



Quote

I recall LeMond’s absolute stance against any medications during his career. He believed he would have won more Tours if it was a level playing field.

He, like many cyclists, has had to deal with losses at the hands of the cheats. He, like many, chose not to take advice and gifts of treatments from soigneur’s ‘vitamins’ – the contents of which were not know to him."

John Swanson

...maybe not missing...like Greg where did you put that kidney, but....

Another is the fact that he has been functioning on just one kidney since he was 11.

....so maybe functionally missing perhaps...?....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/saddled-with-difficulties-but-lemond-powers-on-1.549969

Cheers

 

[sniper]

good post scienceiscool.
i have a few comments on it, but i just saw the mods reopened the Lemond thread, and am guessing they want to transfer the lemond posts from the last few pages to that thread.
So i'll wait for that, and then comment.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

good post scienceiscool.
i have a few comments on it, but i just saw the mods reopened the Lemond thread, and am guessing they want to transfer the lemond posts from the last few pages to that thread.
So i'll wait for that, and then comment.

I'm sure you do, and I'm sure it's something to refute much of the info above. We can't wait to hear your response.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

good post scienceiscool.
i have a few comments on it, but i just saw the mods reopened the Lemond thread, and am guessing they want to transfer the lemond posts from the last few pages to that thread.
So i'll wait for that, and then comment.

I will be moving the Lemond comments over to the Lemond thread, but it may not be right away. Go ahead and post your response sniper, it'll follow science is cools comment when I move them.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

good post scienceiscool.
i have a few comments on it, but i just saw the mods reopened the Lemond thread, and am guessing they want to transfer the lemond posts from the last few pages to that thread.
So i'll wait for that, and then comment.

I will be moving the Lemond comments over to the Lemond thread, but it may not be right away. Go ahead and post your response sniper, it'll follow science is cools comment when I move them.

thanks irondan.
it's past my bedtime anyway, so no hurry whatsoever.