1. Pantani 36’50″, 1995, 22.5 kph
2. Pantani 36’55″, 1997
3. Pantani 37’15″, 1994
4. Armstrong 37’36″, 2004 (ITT)
5. Ullrich 37’40″, 1997
6. Armstrong 38’01″, 2001
7. Indurain/Zulle 38’10″, 1995
8. Riis 38’15″, 1995
9. Virenque 38’20″, 1997
10. Landis 38’34″, 2006, 21.5 kph
The above list was posted by The Hog in another forum.
I felt that my interest in it more belonged to The Clinic.
Does this list seem to greatly emphasise the possibility that Ullrich doped less (more cautiously) after the '90's? I know that there are some variances on stages due to the heat, terrain prior to the final ascent and how hard the field raced before reaching the final climb. But to me (the mere viewer and fan) it seems 'impossible' that anyone could ever compete with Lance in '01 Alp form. Yet there is Jan going faster in '97? The thing is, is that I believe Ullrich to have been in career best form (at least in a general fitness sense) in '01 (or at least close to '97 level), at least fitter than in 2000, and he did still race very well up the Alp in '01 (after all he beat all the other supposed climbing specialists), but only did about an even forty minutes. It seems to a possibly less naive me these days that this is perhaps the best 'evidence' for the unlevel playing field that may have existed in the peloton during the Armstrong years (on the hypothetical that he and his team could be doped to the gills without fear/risk of being caught).
Obviously pre '98 it was a total free for all in that regard.
It's surprising to see that Lance's time trial in '04 is only 25 seconds faster than his '01 ride - given that he should have been far fresher?
The 2006 time of Landis really stands out on this list. Were non Postal riders forced to dope less during the Armstrong years and then had the shackles released in '06? Obviously Landis was caught later, but remember that Kloden rode with him all the way to the top in this stage, and it seems strange that he could go a 38:34 while Ullrich only goes a 40:01 in '01. We pretty much know that T-Mobile went all out in '06 to win (the Freiburg clinic revelations), so it suggests strongly to me that Jan wasn't doping too extravagantly in '01 (remember that he beat Beloki who was a great climber and rode for ONCE - renowned for their doping practices), especially as Kloden wasn't even probably at his absolute best form of '04 (in about March of '06 he did a collarbone and struggled to reach full fitness for The Tour).
What this list suggests is that the Armstrong/Ullrich battle in The Tour of '01 could have been an absolute epic if both were going "all out" (on an assumption that Jan wasn't doping as heavily in '01). What do knowledgeable fans think about this? And do you guys feel that Armstrong was doping as freely during his seven wins as what the leading GC guys were doing during the '90's?
And regarding the 2011 Alp stage: Does it even matter that the stage is only 109 kms? Maybe it doesn't matter too much how fresh the riders are at the start of the climb, otherwise wouldn't have the time trial times of '04 been faster?
2. Pantani 36’55″, 1997
3. Pantani 37’15″, 1994
4. Armstrong 37’36″, 2004 (ITT)
5. Ullrich 37’40″, 1997
6. Armstrong 38’01″, 2001
7. Indurain/Zulle 38’10″, 1995
8. Riis 38’15″, 1995
9. Virenque 38’20″, 1997
10. Landis 38’34″, 2006, 21.5 kph
The above list was posted by The Hog in another forum.
I felt that my interest in it more belonged to The Clinic.
Does this list seem to greatly emphasise the possibility that Ullrich doped less (more cautiously) after the '90's? I know that there are some variances on stages due to the heat, terrain prior to the final ascent and how hard the field raced before reaching the final climb. But to me (the mere viewer and fan) it seems 'impossible' that anyone could ever compete with Lance in '01 Alp form. Yet there is Jan going faster in '97? The thing is, is that I believe Ullrich to have been in career best form (at least in a general fitness sense) in '01 (or at least close to '97 level), at least fitter than in 2000, and he did still race very well up the Alp in '01 (after all he beat all the other supposed climbing specialists), but only did about an even forty minutes. It seems to a possibly less naive me these days that this is perhaps the best 'evidence' for the unlevel playing field that may have existed in the peloton during the Armstrong years (on the hypothetical that he and his team could be doped to the gills without fear/risk of being caught).
Obviously pre '98 it was a total free for all in that regard.
It's surprising to see that Lance's time trial in '04 is only 25 seconds faster than his '01 ride - given that he should have been far fresher?
The 2006 time of Landis really stands out on this list. Were non Postal riders forced to dope less during the Armstrong years and then had the shackles released in '06? Obviously Landis was caught later, but remember that Kloden rode with him all the way to the top in this stage, and it seems strange that he could go a 38:34 while Ullrich only goes a 40:01 in '01. We pretty much know that T-Mobile went all out in '06 to win (the Freiburg clinic revelations), so it suggests strongly to me that Jan wasn't doping too extravagantly in '01 (remember that he beat Beloki who was a great climber and rode for ONCE - renowned for their doping practices), especially as Kloden wasn't even probably at his absolute best form of '04 (in about March of '06 he did a collarbone and struggled to reach full fitness for The Tour).
What this list suggests is that the Armstrong/Ullrich battle in The Tour of '01 could have been an absolute epic if both were going "all out" (on an assumption that Jan wasn't doping as heavily in '01). What do knowledgeable fans think about this? And do you guys feel that Armstrong was doping as freely during his seven wins as what the leading GC guys were doing during the '90's?
And regarding the 2011 Alp stage: Does it even matter that the stage is only 109 kms? Maybe it doesn't matter too much how fresh the riders are at the start of the climb, otherwise wouldn't have the time trial times of '04 been faster?