Does she or doesn't she?

[Merckx index]

Dara Torres is the Jeannie Longo of swimming. A middle-aged woman who routinely kicks the a— of girls young enough to be her daughters. But she is different. She does it all clean. Or so she claims. Another one of these too good to be true stories.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...for-the-ages/2012/05/16/gIQAAPF6TU_story.html

she’s a middle-aged woman who bought her first pair of reading glasses last year, dyes her hair blonde to cover the gray and can’t believe she was foolish enough to install a magnifying mirror in her bathroom, given the alarming amount of information it reveals. Torres, who turned 45 on April 15, is also a favorite to make her sixth Olympic team in the 50-meter freestyle at next month’s U.S. Olympic swimming trials in Omaha.

A 12-time Olympic medalist who won three medals at the 2008 Summer Games in Beijing, Torres has consistently gotten faster with age, relying on a team of medical and fitness experts to help her outwit Father Time. But this Olympic attempt, she said, has been the hardest by far. Doctors have confirmed what she instinctively knew: Production of hormones such as testosterone and growth hormone that are critical to building muscle and recovering from workouts are continuing to decrease. She can no longer expect to maintain the strength of her youth, let alone improve on it.

Sprinting is mostly about strength, though recovery is important in training. I find it really hard to believe that she can maintain elite status as a sprinter as her strength decreases. Sure didn't work for Mark Spitz, who flopped when he tried to make a comeback in his 40s. There are really two problems here: first, you aren't as fast at 40 as you were at 20; and second, even if you are as fast as you were at 20, that speed is no longer good enough twenty years later, in a sport in which records fall almost annually.

Torres readily admits she seeks every possible means of performance-enhancement within the rules. In her constant attempts to keep age at bay, Torres said, she often feels like a 5-foot-11 science project. In fact, she recently added a second trainer, scientist and neurologist to her team of consultants.

Her advisers say she warns them to be mindful of anti-doping rules, which prohibit the use of steroids, most hormones and many other performance-enhancing substances.

“You just have to be so careful,” Torres said. “You want to follow the [anti-doping] rules and do everything 100 percent right, and so you just have to make sure you are working with people that understand that.”

Like Jessica Hardy?

Given her sculpted physique, late-career excellence and reliance on such an entourage of science and medical advisers, Torres for years has been dogged by assumptions that she must be on something despite her record of never flunking a drug test.

“Unfortunately, Dara has been someone [about whom] people speculate, ‘She’s used drugs, she’s done different things,’” her trainer, Andy O’Brien said. But “it’s very important to her that she doesn’t do anything she’s not supposed to do . . . She’s really, really uniquely gifted . . . [and] she’s fiercely competitive. She’s one of the most intense athletes I’ve ever worked with.”

Where have I heard that before? I think he left out "awesome", though.

Ted Carrick, a chiropractic neurologist who worked with NHL star Sidney Crosby, videotaped Torres’s eye movements and determined that her eyes responded slowly to moving patterns. Her inability to focus efficiently, she was told, was essentially expending energy and making her tired.
Carrick sent her home with exercises designed to eliminate gaps in her perception. Since then, three times a day, she follows a red dot as it moves in a pattern across a screen.

Sounds like a quack to me. If there's any connection of eye movements with energy levels, it's more likely the other way around--the eyes move more slowly when tired. In any case, the amount of energy expended by eye movements is trivial compared to what is used just to travel to the pool every day.

Jeoff Drobot, the medical director of the Calgary Centre for Naturopathic Medicine, recommended that she use an oxygen concentrator (EWOT machine) to breathe pure oxygen while riding a stationary bike three times a week, hoping to flush out toxins. She subjects herself to electric shock therapy thrice weekly in the hope of stimulating her cells. She sleeps with a magnetic device under her mattress; it emits a frequency said to induce a more restful, healing sleep.

A lot of this sounds like BS. There is no evidence I'm aware of that any kind of stimulation therapy can increase hormone levels. The problem of aging is not just less secretion, it's less synthesis. I also found it interesting that despite all this attention to every detail, she goes out to a restaurant and pigs out on, well, pigs (bacon), which I regard as junk food.

 

[jpeeden]

Not quite sure if these align

While I do understand the main connection between the two (high achieving older female athletes) I don't really think the two can compare. Torres has been a dominating sprinter since her early teens (Longo 21). Also, the speed of an athlete in the 50 and 100 free does not just come from pure strength, but a combination of reaction times, technique, and strength. I am not saying that Torres does or does not dope, I have my own doubts about her as being clean, but she has always been a phenom. Even her comeback, while surprising considering the mental inhibitions she had (read Gold In the Water for more info), does not really compare to Spitz. Spitz at the age of 40 was tempted to come back by a large amount of money offered by Bod Greenspan after spending the previous 18 years working in property development while Torres returned after spending the previous years as an active athletic's reporter (i.e staying fit) and only after Shubert saw her practice. In brief, while I may not believe in everything she does, but she doesn't really fit either of these comparisons.

 

[Merckx index]

While I do understand the main connection between the two (high achieving older female athletes) I don't really think the two can compare. Torres has been a dominating sprinter since her early teens (Longo 21). Also, the speed of an athlete in the 50 and 100 free does not just come from pure strength, but a combination of reaction times, technique, and strength. I am not saying that Torres does or does not dope, I have my own doubts about her as being clean, but she has always been a phenom. Even her comeback, while surprising considering the mental inhibitions she had (read Gold In the Water for more info), does not really compare to Spitz. Spitz at the age of 40 was tempted to come back by a large amount of money offered by Bod Greenspan after spending the previous 18 years working in property development while Torres returned after spending the previous years as an active athletic's reporter (i.e staying fit) and only after Shubert saw her practice. In brief, while I may not believe in everything she does, but she doesn't really fit either of these comparisons.

Fair points, but:

1) That Torres was dominant from an earlier age than Longo simply reflects the differences between swimmers and cyclists. Swimmers mature earlier. While Michael Phelps made an Olympic final at age 15, and Amanda Beard medaled at I think age 14, no teenager has ever won a GT. I'm not even sure that one has ever even competed in one.

Conversely, though, swimmers also peak and go into decline earlier. Elite bike racers, certainly on the road, commonly compete well after 30, and as we have seen in the current peloton, even up to 40 (no doubt enhanced, but not necessarily any more enhanced than the younger bucks they’re racing against). This is not unusual in endurance sports, look at Armstrong now. Swimmers traditionally have been finished well before they’re 30. At 27, Phelps is an old man, and will not do as well this time around as in the previous two Olympics. Same with most if not all of his contemporaries on those two previous teams.

2) I agree that Spitz had a tougher hill to climb in that after his Olympic success he was further away from the sport, and for a longer period of time. But he was not even remotely close to elite at 40. We’re comparing Torres, who is still one of the best in the world, to a guy who was nowhere close to qualifying. If he hadn’t been Mark Spitz, he wouldn’t even have attracted any attention as a possible candidate to qualify. As I said before, to succeed at 40 it isn’t enough to be as good as you were at 20, you have to be better, because the sport has moved far along in those twenty years. The human body’s physical performance declines during this period, some more than others, but no one is exempt from this aging process.

3) Reaction time is of course very important in sprints, but like strength, that also declines with age. And unlike strength, where whatever you have at a particular age can be improved, I don’t think there’s a lot you can do to decrease your (raw) reaction time. Technique (both in the water and in reacting to the gun) of course can be changed, but I rather doubt that after all these years Torres has discovered a new, improved technique that was unknown to her and other swimmers before.

At best, she may have developed something that is more appropriate given her acknowledged loss of strength at this time. Janet Evans used to look emaciated compared to the E. German women she consistently beat, but compensated for less muscle by turning over her stroke faster. She could do this because her thinner body dissipated heat faster. Possibly Torres is working on something along these lines, though heat loss would not be so critical for a sprinter.

As always in these discussions, we have to stipulate that if Torres is doping, probably many of the women she’s competing against are, too. So I certainly agree that she’s exceptional by any standard. Just to have the motivation to train this hard in your mid 40s, when you have nothing left to prove, is remarkable.

 

[jpeeden]

Torres

The only thing I would add to the previous post made would be that her stroke made one main change. Coming back into the pool, the coaches at Santa Clara (Jochums et al) and Shumacher had her switch from the flatter freestyle of 80s and into the more core dominant free stroke.

No real argument about anything, nice to have a swim convo though, even if drug related

 

[180mmCrank]

No evidence - but the swimmers I know who would/could know always roll their eyes at the mention of her name. Certainly does not prove anything but there are folk in the sport that have serious concerns. Again this doesnt mean anything other than the 'smoke' with no fire.

T

 

[Ripper]

Hey there - I was thinking of starting a thread asking the question of Kristin Armstrong, who has come back and thus far been pretty much whiping the road with every single competitor (and beating a lot of the men).

I don't remember her being that strong before.

BTW - I realize this is off topic, so no major flames please

 

[Caruut]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/sports/15doctor.html?_r=1

 

[DirtyWorks]

Good job Caruut.

Here's the follow-up *felony* indictments. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/s...ads-guilty-to-drug-charge.html?pagewanted=all

It seems a doctor licensed in Canada can't bring drugs not allowed nor use drugs in non-specified ways in the U.S. AND THEN perform the duties of a U.S. licensed M.D. Shocking! He was administering Actovigen aaaannd HGH to some of his clients. I wonder what the WADA tested clients (Dara, please stand up!) were getting....

Here's the money shot: ..the amount Galea charged his patients in the United States during the more than two years in question was about $800,000. And the value of the substances given to patients was between $30,000 and $70,000.

Clearing USD$ 300,000+ a year means doping pays. I wonder if Ferrari clears that kind of money these days.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hey there - I was thinking of starting a thread asking the question of Kristin Armstrong, who has come back and thus far been pretty much whiping the road with every single competitor (and beating a lot of the men).

I don't remember her being that strong before.

BTW - I realize this is off topic, so no major flames please

She's always been good. Always.

USAC loooves her to the point of ignoring their own published selection criteria and bumping the rider who earned her spot off the World team so she can ride in 2011. Fortunately, USAC had to follow their own rules, but only after lawyers got involved.

 

[Caruut]

Good job Caruut.

Here's the follow-up *felony* indictments. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/s...ads-guilty-to-drug-charge.html?pagewanted=all

It seems a doctor licensed in Canada can't bring drugs not allowed nor use drugs in non-specified ways in the U.S. AND THEN perform the duties of a U.S. licensed M.D. Shocking! He was administering Actovigen aaaannd HGH to some of his clients. I wonder what the WADA tested clients (Dara, please stand up!) were getting....

Here's the money shot: ..the amount Galea charged his patients in the United States during the more than two years in question was about $800,000. And the value of the substances given to patients was between $30,000 and $70,000.

Clearing USD$ 300,000+ a year means doping pays. I wonder if Ferrari clears that kind of money these days.

This talk of money made me wonder what the impact the potential changes in the Swiss banking system the US and EU are pushing for might have on uncovering doping. Was just remembering Frank's £10,000 payment to a certain gynaecologist and it made me think - if I were a doping doctor, I'd have a Swiss bank account or two. There are many covering reasons (Alps and tax avoidance) for rich cyclists and people assisting them to be hanging around in Switzerland too.

 

[Dallas_]

Conversely, though, swimmers also peak and go into decline earlier.

Swimmers traditionally have been finished well before they’re 30.

I agree that Spitz had a tougher hill to climb in that after his Olympic success he was further away from the sport, and for a longer period of time. But he was not even remotely close to elite at 40.

The human body’s physical performance declines during this period, some more than others, but no one is exempt from this aging process.

Reaction time is of course very important in sprints, but like strength, that also declines with age.

but I rather doubt that after all these years Torres has discovered a new, improved technique that was unknown to her and other swimmers before.

You are right on the money MI

She reminds me of Jeannie.

cheers
.

 

[Caruut]

You are right on the money MI

She reminds me of Jeannie.

cheers
.

In cycling at least, cardio and experience play a huge role. Cardio takes years and years to develop, and obviously experience keeps on increasing (unless you go senile, but even Chris Horner and Longo aren't that old). She has no such excuse.

 

[benzwire]

Completely natural for a woman at 40+ to look like this

 

[Benotti69]

In cycling at least, cardio and experience play a huge role. Cardio takes years and years to develop, and obviously experience keeps on increasing (unless you go senile, but even Chris Horner and Longo aren't that old). She has no such excuse.

If you consider 28 (26-30) as the age that a man reaches his sporting peak, Chris Horner is ancient in professional sporting terms!

Longo is another who is ancient in professional sporting terms.

It is amazing how many athletes are able to prolong their careers nowadays. I doubt(99.9%) most of them do it without PEDs.

 

[180mmCrank]

Completely natural for a woman at 40+ to look like this

Athletes are extraordinary!

I don't actually have any problem believing that someone can be and stay in shape (like this) as they get older without using PED. It takes dedication and near obsessive focus. But there is some noise around this individual that seems to suggest she walks a very fine line between what is allowable and what would be considered not.

What makes it more interesting in some ways is that even some of what an athlete like this does is so un natural even if it's legal you wonder if it should be! But probably a different topic.

 

[Caruut]

If you consider 28 (26-30) as the age that a man reaches his sporting peak, Chris Horner is ancient in professional sporting terms!

Longo is another who is ancient in professional sporting terms.

It is amazing how many athletes are able to prolong their careers nowadays. I doubt(99.9%) most of them do it without PEDs.

"Sporting peak" is such an arbitrary term though. Of course Chris Horner is ancient, but I think cycling, in being both non-contact and heavily dependent on endurance probably has a slightly later peak, than sprinting events in any discipline. What I'm saying is that this case is even more extreme than Longo and Horner.

 

[slowoldman]

The only thing I would add to the previous post made would be that her stroke made one main change. Coming back into the pool, the coaches at Santa Clara (Jochums et al) and Shumacher had her switch from the flatter freestyle of 80s and into the more core dominant free stroke.

No real argument about anything, nice to have a swim convo though, even if drug related

Is that like riding with a higher cadence?

 

[Cloxxki]

Is that like riding with a higher cadence?

Except everyone half her age has been doing that since forever already?
Like dedicating your new found success to a sports drink, that has been on the market forever.

 

[Caruut]

Except everyone half her age has been doing that since forever already?
Like dedicating your new found success to a sports drink, that has been on the market forever.

Special sports drink formula? I think somebody just discovered the next "gluten-free diet" of PED excuses.

 

[Jeremiah]

Her baby's daddy is an endocrinologist. I didn't see this in any of the posts but I just skimmed them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29torres-t.html?pagewanted=all

Torres’s partner, David Hoffman, a reproductive endocrinologist, who is Tessa’s father, describes Torres’s personality as “not type A. She’s type A + +.” As if to explain, one evening, over dinner with Torres, her mother and me, Hoffman mentioned how challenging it can be to do any kind of physical exercise with Torres. “When we go on bike rides, she’s gone,” Hoffman said.

“That’s not true!” Torres objected. “I wait for you!”

 

[Cloxxki]

That body style is awesome, but not impossible. A friend of mine is pushing 38, gluten hyper-allergic, and runs mid distance track. Started late, and performs well nationally, and globally dominates as a W35. I see it's possible, and consider it possible even with my own body. But dominating people that started early in life and peak in Olympic top shape, that's something different. Not really likely, if you've been like that 20 years earlier yourself. Time takes its toll.
IMO she should be an unbeatable master swimmer, not an Olymic finalist. There's a difference.

 

[veganrob]

It may be possible for a 40+ woman to attain a body considering all the work she does, but look at her face. She looks to be morphing into a male. Few more years and she'll look like Tammy Thomas.

 

[THISISIT]

It may be possible for a 40+ woman to attain a body considering all the work she does, but look at her face. She looks to be morphing into a male. Few more years and she'll look like Tammy Thomas.

Exactly, I saw a picture of her the other day and she's got a chin now that almost puts Cipollini's to shame. Growth hormone does a body good!

If I were her physician and didn't know anything else about her I'd start suspecting a pituitary tumor.

 

[Merckx index]

At age 40, the greatest of all female American distance swimmers was back at the U.S. Olympic Trials for the first time since 1996. Now a mother of two, she was competing in unfamiliar territory: a mid-pack heat of the 400-meter freestyle. She was surrounded by swimmers less than half her age – seven teenagers were in the field.

"They're closer in age to my children," Evans said afterward, her trademark toothy grin and giggle still part of the package.

To the surprise of no one, the kids cleaned her clock. Evans finished 80th in the event and seventh in her heat, nearly seven seconds behind 19-year-old heat winner Danielle Siverling. Evans' time of 4 minutes, 21.49 seconds, is a distant echo of the world-record 4:03.85 she swam 24 years ago. That mark stood for 18 years – an eternity in swimming time – and she still holds the American 800 free record she set in 1989.

This is the kind of performance you expect from a 40 year old former Olympic gold medalist. Damn good, but not as good as when she was in her prime, and what she did in her prime wouldn’t win today. Granted, it's not completely comparable to Torres, because Evans dropped out of competition for many years. OTOH, performance at distance events ought to drop off less with age, because it's much more about endurance, rather than fast-twitch.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/janet-evans-olympic-trials-olympics-omaha-400-age-40.html

 

[FitSsikS]

Completely natural for a woman at 40+ to look like this

Of course, especially after having a kid.