Doping among the Fast Men

[Happy dude]

Most of the Doping talk on this forum is directed at the climbers. Mainly the ones that magically appear on the cycling scene. I don't know much about doping or what you can use for what etc.

But do the pure sprinters dope. Can they take something to make them go faster? Or do they just do it to get over the climbs. (Or get up them in blings case)
What do people think on individual riders.
Has Kittel doped to become #1 sprinter?
What about Cav? Went from sky to OPQS. Slightly suspicious considering the Rep of those two teams
Greipel dropping Nibali on the Cipressa? That sounds quite legitimate

What about bike doping? Is there a way to make the bikes put out more power than the people can themselves?

Anyone have an opinion. Or some evidence to show that they do. Or maybe they don't?
Cheers

 

[Catwhoorg]

The products for doping a sprinter on a bike, would be similar to those use in track and field.

 

[SeriousSam]

Can they take something to make them go faster? Yes, they benefit from pretty much every known substance that has ever been used in cycling.

Remember, Dwain Chambers, a 100m sprinter, was on and benefited from EPO.

 

[ray j willings]

Crack and sunny delight.

 

[Happy dude]

Re:

Can they take something to make them go faster? Yes, they benefit from pretty much every known substance that has ever been used in cycling.

Remember, Dwain Chambers, a 100m sprinter, was on and benefited from EPO.

Would they use epo only to train harder. I imagine it alone probably doesn't make you faster

 

[del1962]

Zabel used EPO, helps to get over those cli,bs so you can be there for the sprint

 

[sniper]

zabel was definitely a trendsetter.
degenkolb, cavendish, kristoff.
if a sprinter wins a monument he's not only on steroids.

 

[Happy dude]

Its obvious the the sprinters that get over the climbs use epo. But I wondered if they dope to get more power. For example. Does Cavendish use something to get stronger? As he doesn't get that many watts anyway?

 

[70kmph]

Otherwise how would they get over the mountains before the time allowance...

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Can they take something to make them go faster? Yes, they benefit from pretty much every known substance that has ever been used in cycling.

Remember, Dwain Chambers, a 100m sprinter, was on and benefited from EPO.

EPO to help train longer - obviously not in comp as the new test was in.

THG & 'The Clear' as well to build muscle / recover.

I'd be interested to know what people speculate is being used for sprinters on a flat stage. Obviously they conserve energy by being in the peloton, but such explosive power at the end. Could that be possible w/o doping. I mean that someone like Cavendish is obviously naturally more of an explosive cyclist (physiology & build) - could he conserve enough in the draft for the whole day?

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Zabel used EPO, helps to get over those cli,bs so you can be there for the sprint

Yes and don't forget Cipollini using EPO and his EPO-fueled sprint train.
Like another poster just said, look at the stuff that they use in track and field.

 

[Catwhoorg]

What could be used specifically:
You would be looking at mainly anabolics, though not too much, as you don't want the bulk
HGH, other peptide growth factors

Most of this would be OOC tested for, and not used IC.

Then things like AICAR, lipotropin to cut fat, but really sprinters probably don't need to to this, their weight is going to be much easier to maintain with diet than the skeletal climbers.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

EPO to help train longer - obviously not in comp as the new test was in.

THG & 'The Clear' as well to build muscle / recover.

I'd be interested to know what people speculate is being used for sprinters on a flat stage. Obviously they conserve energy by being in the peloton, but such explosive power at the end. Could that be possible w/o doping. I mean that someone like Cavendish is obviously naturally more of an explosive cyclist (physiology & build) - could he conserve enough in the draft for the whole day?

"obviously not in comp as the new test was in".
lol, i guess.
as for that speculation, ever heard of steroids, amphetamines, etc.?
As for Cavendish, he's one of the flagbearers of 'modern' cycling.
He's one who, rest assured, is never going to test positive.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

I'm totally shocked to see that the rider Spud has decided to offer as clean in this thread is Cavendish. Real surprise to see him go for the British rider for a change.

 

[kwinkeo]

Regardless of doping, any road racer (even crit racer) is still primarily an aerobic athlete. So O2 vector aids still most vital (if doping) to conserve glycogen for final 5 km. I think success in field sprints is more a matter of genetic endowment (abundance of fast twitch, etc), balls/aggression, and skill. I suppose stimulants and androgens could help in the final km., but probably no more than a lifetime of thrill seeking and a high tolerance for risk.
I disagree about sprinters not worrying about weight. Considering what they would probably look like as natural, non-cyclist couch-potatoes they are extremely thin. Starve a rugby/hockey player and you get a sprinter.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

I'm totally shocked to see that the rider Spud has decided to offer as clean in this thread is Cavendish. Real surprise to see him go for the British rider for a change.

To be honest Hitch it was the first name that came to me (as a Brit), but it could have easily have been Kittel or anyone else.

Also I didn't actually state that I thought he was clean - I just said his build would make him more of an explosive rider (and I wasn't on about his temper).

 

[D-Queued]

What do

43 Tour de France stage wins
68 Giro d'Italia stage wins
56 Vuelta a Espana stage wins

and

27 Points Classification Jerseys from all three Tours

have in common?

They were all won by just 5 Sprinters who are known dopers. (I didn't bother looking any further, though it is noteworty to add that the notable Rabobank sprinter of this time, with another 11 stage wins and one points classification jersey, who benefitted from having Leinders as the team doctor, claims to not have doped and coke-snorting Boonen could add another points classification and 8 stages to the total)

So, to answer the question in the O.P., doping sprinters get results.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

sprinting in road races are not the final 300 metres.

it is coming into the last 50km with your legs.

it is the strength in the legs in the last 10km to be there.edit: in the slipstream/on the correct wheels and move riders off wheels you want.

it is the ability for repeat efforts in the last 5 km.
edit: (let me add) this is when they are fighting for the wheels and posititioning.

it is being able to put out over 1000 watts over the last km, and still jump at 200metres.

this is not something like Usain Bolt. This is more like Haile Gebrselassie doing a marathon.



EDITS: see my addition. fighting for wheels, positioning, before the peel of the leadout teams off the front. usually it will be about 3 different teams riders who are driving the finish, and you need to have cover, and be well placed when the peel goes.

As much as Cav never got credit for it, the guy is just as good as Mcewen was, it was just that most of Cav's wins he was fortunate to be on High Road or Sky and have a team driving it. Well, when they went missing, or he did not have a leadout, he could still do Mcewen tactics as well as Mcewen ever could. That is why Cav is the best ever sprinter, and by a fair while.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

EPO to help train longer - obviously not in comp as the new test was in.

THG & 'The Clear' as well to build muscle / recover.

I'd be interested to know what people speculate is being used for sprinters on a flat stage. Obviously they conserve energy by being in the peloton, but such explosive power at the end. Could that be possible w/o doping. I mean that someone like Cavendish is obviously naturally more of an explosive cyclist (physiology & build) - could he conserve enough in the draft for the whole day?

"obviously not in comp as the new test was in".
lol, i guess.
as for that speculation, ever heard of steroids, amphetamines, etc.?
As for Cavendish, he's one of the flagbearers of 'modern' cycling.
He's one who, rest assured, is never going to test positive.

re: weightloss. See: Gerrans has NOT lost the weight, whilst others around him have. This has allowed him a greater "punch". Degenkolb and Sagan have not really leaned up. Michael Matthews HAS, so MAtthews true career arc will be to follow Gerrans into the Ardennes, be a rider like Bartoli, someone who mixes it up in the decimated groups in the final finishes. But he did win a Vuelta bunch sprint when he was 21 or 22? Good decisions when you have to go head to head with Kittel and Cav. Best to triangulate your speciality versus the peloton. It is like competitive advantage in economics. I will be interested to see how Sagan progresses, he could do anything, he could be a GC rider if he wished. Michael MAtthews is a phenomenal talent, but he is still a poor mans Sagan, a boho homeless Sagan.

 

[Ferminal]

You only need to look at sprinters like Guardini/Chicchi to see how useful EPO is even on completely flat run ins.

The reason why many solid sprinters tend to be ex track/chrono types.

 

[the delgados]

Re:

sprinting in road races are not the final 300 metres.

it is coming into the last 50km with your legs.

it is the strength in the legs in the last 10km to be there.

it is the ability for repeat efforts in the last 5 km.

it is being able to put out over 1000 watts over the last km, and still jump at 200metres.

this is not something like Usain Bolt. This is more like Haille Gabreselasse doing a marathon.

Total aside here, but Blackcat should be paid for contributions to this forum. S/he reminds me of my favourite writers.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

You only need to look at sprinters like Guardini/Chicchi to see how useful EPO is even on completely flat run ins.

The reason why many solid sprinters tend to be ex track/chrono types.

you know that Petacchi said in training that Chicchi would beat him in the finishing kick at training. I think he won a Paris Tours one year, and a few other races I have seen him win, when he came out of the wheels he was doing 2:1 (two to one). He was quick, just never could use it. If he had Freire's nous and strength, he would have won more than Freire and bigger races than Chicchi did, and Freire was quick too, just not as quick as Chicchi. But he could position himself and read the finish and had the strength to sprint for the win. 90% of time, Cav gets to sprint for the win. This would probably be his most remarkable statististic. When he gets the opportunity to sprint for the win, Cav would be 85% successful.

oh, and Theo Bos never made the cross over successfully from track sprinter, who could do a 9.9 flying 200 on the track, to having the strength to sprint for wins on the road. And at his leanest, he is probably a kilo lighter than Greipel, and 2 kilos lighter than Cancellara, and one kilo heavier than Boonen.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

sprinting in road races are not the final 300 metres.

it is coming into the last 50km with your legs.

it is the strength in the legs in the last 10km to be there.

it is the ability for repeat efforts in the last 5 km.

it is being able to put out over 1000 watts over the last km, and still jump at 200metres.

this is not something like Usain Bolt. This is more like Haille Gabreselasse doing a marathon.

Total aside here, but Blackcat should be paid for contributions to this forum. S/he reminds me of my favourite writers.

its the howling fantods and the quackish arts.

#retweet

 

[blackcat]

Re:

this post was edited below. if that is illegal, the forum code needs to be changed by daniel.

if daniel was called david it could be jonathans love for david.


and this thread needs some graeme brown. or, as some christened him, in pagan tradition, graeme de bruijn. In about 2001 Scott Mcgrory referred to him and his entourage as carnival barkers. I think that is a bit harsh myself, true, but harsh.

sprinting in road races are not the final 300 metres.

it is coming into the last 50km with your legs.

it is the strength in the legs in the last 10km to be there.edit: in the slipstream/on the correct wheels and move riders off wheels you want.

it is the ability for repeat efforts in the last 5 km.
edit: (let me add) this is when they are fighting for the wheels and posititioning.

it is being able to put out over 1000 watts over the last km, and still jump at 200metres.

this is not something like Usain Bolt. This is more like Haile Gebrselassie doing a marathon.



EDITS: see my addition. fighting for wheels, positioning, before the peel of the leadout teams off the front. usually it will be about 3 different teams riders who are driving the finish, and you need to have cover, and be well placed when the peel goes.

As much as Cav never got credit for it, the guy is just as good as Mcewen was, it was just that most of Cav's wins he was fortunate to be on High Road or Sky and have a team driving it. Well, when they went missing, or he did not have a leadout, he could still do Mcewen tactics as well as Mcewen ever could. That is why Cav is the best ever sprinter, and by a fair while.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

You only need to look at sprinters like Guardini/Chicchi to see how useful EPO is even on completely flat run ins.

The reason why many solid sprinters tend to be ex track/chrono types.

i am channeling my inner ambiguity Fermie.

why Checchini and Guardini? because they are bigger <pure type> sprinters. They are made for the wide promenades like on the Champs Elysees, or the Via Roma, and the wide expanse for the drag strip.

So adding EPO to the guys who would otherwise not get there, allows them to sprint for the win.
Or, that these guys, are riders who carry muscle and are explosive and it is this muscle and explosivity and speed that helps them to compete for the wins. (this option is, or EPO no use).

Theo Bos could not compete regularly for sprint wins, even with the great leadouts by Graeme Brown, sorry, Graeme de Bruijn. where is the strikethru code goddamit.

Taylor Phinney's one km time on the track is pretty close to Bos. about 2km slower, but he has the endurance to be there at the most competitive finishes, but he is not a bunch sprinter because he does not have that balls to the wall risk mentality.