doping at club level?

[delbified]

sorry if this has already been posted by i couldn't find anything. marcus is this shifty bloke who races down at my local wednesday night crits. he was middle of the pack in D grade last year but this year he mysteriously came from nowhere to move up to C and has been riding people off his wheel in the sprints. trust me, there's a lot of guys who've been racing C grade for years who are asking questions.

i've spoken to him about doping before and he just isn't interested in discussing it. in fact last time it was just damn awkward, he seemed to look straight through me, it reminded me a bit of lance at one of those press conferences when he gets asked about it.

also when he's not in team kit, i've seen him riding in a Phonak jersey.

now i've brought this up with some other riders and although they agree it's hard to understand why he's suddenly winning all these races, they start rolling their eyes if i ask them if they reckon he's doping. which makes me wonder - maybe it's more common that i thought it was? there's definitely been races where i've felt like i had the legs to win, but i just get overrun on the last lap.

has anyone else had problems with doping at their club races?

 

[skidmark]

also when he's not in team kit, i've seen him riding in a Phonak jersey.

Good lord, you've been spending too much time in the Clinic.

 

[BigChain]

sorry if this has already been posted by i couldn't find anything. marcus is this shifty bloke who races down at my local wednesday night crits. he was middle of the pack in D grade last year but this year he mysteriously came from nowhere to move up to C and has been riding people off his wheel in the sprints. trust me, there's a lot of guys who've been racing C grade for years who are asking questions.

has anyone else had problems with doping at their club races?

No doubt doping will and does occur in Club Racing.

But fair dinkum - cut the guy some slack. There are plenty of reasons why he could be winning in C grade and couldn't in D grade. I'll use my own experience since this is only my 3rd season racing, I am over 50, race C Open and B Vets. Whilst I haven't won a race in either grade yet, I am constantly finishing top 5-10 so hopefully it won't be long. The only thing I'm on is Chocolate and that is certainly not performance enhancing.

- He was in D last year and C this year. Wow, 1 whole year. He could be fitter!
- Last year he worked 70 hours per week, now he only works 50 hours and has more time for training
- He might travel regularly for 1-2 weeks each time, so is always trying to get back up to speed
- He might have dropped 10kg in weight
- He may have always been a good rider but never bothered to test himself
- He has only started to work out how to race. It does take time to get some confidence.
- He couldn't corner properly previously and has only started to work out how to.
- He was too timid to start with and was too far back in his early races to have a proper sprint
- He was pushed up to C grade by officials because it was obvious he was too strong for D grade
- He may have been racing on dead legs all of last year. That is he may have been doing huge k's on the weekends to train for a huge mountain ride, or he may have been training to ride the Alps or Pyrenees, so racing was only another way to keep fit
- He may have had some coaching, especially in how to sprint.
- He might have worked out how to hold his position in the last few hectic k's so that he is now in a position to actually contest the sprint
- He might find the early pace hard, but actually has stamina, so that when the race is close to one hour old, he is feeling comparatively better than even much younger riders. (On really long rides I feel really good after 3+ hours, and generally much better comparatively to my fellow riders)
- etc, etc, etc

- So basically he's learnt (at least a bit) how to race.

If he does dope then more fool him.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm sure it exists.

Andrew Tilin was a lowly Cat 4 who recently admitted to being on EPO, HGH and few other things. He's now writing a book on it. (I won't be buying it).

 

[DirtyWorks]

I agree with both posts.

Dope-free is possible, even likely because of the variation in fitness is great at this level.

Doped is possible. It seems widely available.

I'll go 50/50 on either possibility too.

 

[CowboyTx]

 

[Martin318is]

Hi,
You mention C and D which puts you Australia and I think that Wednesday night crits will likely put you at either Kew Blvd or in Ballarat (my guess is Kew).

To look at St Kilda for instance, recently the C grade field raced at 40.9 kph for their event. On the same day, D grade did 39.9. Frankly, there is no way the two grades would be that close together without a number of C grade level riders doing the pulling.

So, you have a guy on a course that has a climb every lap riding mid field in D grade one year and successfully in C the next. Yes he could have got there by dope but he could just have easily got there with the harder effort of weight loss, dedicated interval training and geting a racing brain installed.

 

[Cloxxki]

Obvious troll story, but a good issue to raise regardless.

I've had several first hand accounts of a (legal) supplement to change a rider, and especially his results, around.

One guy who was never was able to even make it to the final in a crit, takes this supplement (beta-alanine), and manages to hang on, and then use his sprint power. Not after 3 years of racing, but a long, resultless career. There may well be a huge mental boost coming from that. This supplement enhanced sprint length, and mid-race recovery.

I know a lady racer who was never chubby, but dropped 10kg using a single supplement (calcium pyruvate) that really worked for her, although this meant usuing it for 6 months while advised was to use it only 3-4 weeks at a time. She went from an also-ran in national elite races with a good sprint, to someone who'd solo so hard and long that the legendary Van Moorsel was forced to lead the chase. Crits and duathlons were won.

A third supplement (CEE, see below) was tried by a master triathlete, with many years of mediocre results. He'd never used any kind of supplements, let alone dope. Was about to retire as triathlete (so much for so little), but with the supplement, his results suddenly came, with medals and all. He decided to stick with the sport for a couple more years, just to enjoy this late roll he got on.

A fourth supplement (d-ribose) was used by a running couple in their 50's, in hope to recover quicker between runs, and enjoy the sport more often per week. It did half their recovery time, and they doubled their training volume accordingly. Their running speeds went up nicely, jogging became running again.

My own experiences with supplements have been less drastic, but then that's to be expected as I'm genetically quite gifted. Some things will definately help, and when I will take racing real serious again I'll come back to make good use of them. To have my body accept greater training volumes, attain higher strength, recover mid-race, and simply get more O2 in my blood per gasp of breath.

Supplements, if you all of them together, may not be able to beat the effects of well administered EPO or blood doping by itself, but they can change you drastically as a performance athlete. Especially if you're not born to be among the best of the best. Frustratingly though, you need to find what works for your body best. It may be a simple harmless additive that unlocks your potential, or it may be quite complicated. No doping doc to help you with this, just some rare specialists who can advise (and sell) you something to try. I am lucky enough to know one that is also approached by Olympic cyclists.

Latest hit supplement: Creatine Ethylester (CEE). I tried it leading up to some cross-country races (living in a country with little snow, and no ski culture). All I did, was test myself with push-ups. I improve my raps, which I'd already built up to 50+ over the course of months, to 60+ within a week. It works like creatine, but doesn't have you put on weight, plus it has some extra's. If you race and take yourself seriously, and consider supplements OK, you need to get in. Some highschool kids tested it double blind vs a placebo of taurine, and the performance increase they got from it in running tests was beyond anything ever gotten in a more scientific test. I just can't print the outcome, it was just off the charts, and more you're expect from even a 42%hc guy, epo'ing to 49.9%, and then blood doping with an extra pint of such blood. That big a gain. Again, I didn't get that huge a gain, but I did break all my recent track training run times, by many seconds. Moved up a groupette in my training group.
If this stuff works for you as it works for some others, moving up a cat may not be all that ambitious.

As I wrote on twitter recently:
Doping : Racers will talk about it among themselves and managers, trainers, but absolutely deny everything towards the rest of the world.

Supplements : Racers will openly show they stuf to the jury and anti-dopage with all the info they might want to have. Some vague hints towards fans and friends, but absolutely not a word about it towards fellow racers.

Think about it. There ARE pro riders out there on sophisticated supplements programs they've figured out themselves. Putting in serious time to get to that point, and not even considering taking the risk or moral implications of doping.

 

[craig1985]

I was able to move myself up to B grade, and I've held my own in A/B races combined, seriously, it's easy enough to do without doping, and SFA time to train during the week.

 

[andy1234]

Obvious troll story, but a good issue to raise regardless.

I've had several first hand accounts of a (legal) supplement to change a rider, and especially his results, around.

One guy who was never was able to even make it to the final in a crit, takes this supplement (beta-alanine), and manages to hang on, and then use his sprint power. Not after 3 years of racing, but a long, resultless career. There may well be a huge mental boost coming from that. This supplement enhanced sprint length, and mid-race recovery.

I know a lady racer who was never chubby, but dropped 10kg using a single supplement (calcium pyruvate) that really worked for her, although this meant usuing it for 6 months while advised was to use it only 3-4 weeks at a time. She went from an also-ran in national elite races with a good sprint, to someone who'd solo so hard and long that the legendary Van Moorsel was forced to lead the chase. Crits and duathlons were won.

A third supplement (CEE, see below) was tried by a master triathlete, with many years of mediocre results. He'd never used any kind of supplements, let alone dope. Was about to retire as triathlete (so much for so little), but with the supplement, his results suddenly came, with medals and all. He decided to stick with the sport for a couple more years, just to enjoy this late roll he got on.

A fourth supplement (d-ribose) was used by a running couple in their 50's, in hope to recover quicker between runs, and enjoy the sport more often per week. It did half their recovery time, and they doubled their training volume accordingly. Their running speeds went up nicely, jogging became running again.

My own experiences with supplements have been less drastic, but then that's to be expected as I'm genetically quite gifted. Some things will definately help, and when I will take racing real serious again I'll come back to make good use of them. To have my body accept greater training volumes, attain higher strength, recover mid-race, and simply get more O2 in my blood per gasp of breath.

Supplements, if you all of them together, may not be able to beat the effects of well administered EPO or blood doping by itself, but they can change you drastically as a performance athlete. Especially if you're not born to be among the best of the best. Frustratingly though, you need to find what works for your body best. It may be a simple harmless additive that unlocks your potential, or it may be quite complicated. No doping doc to help you with this, just some rare specialists who can advise (and sell) you something to try. I am lucky enough to know one that is also approached by Olympic cyclists.

Latest hit supplement: Creatine Ethylester (CEE). I tried it leading up to some cross-country races (living in a country with little snow, and no ski culture). All I did, was test myself with push-ups. I improve my raps, which I'd already built up to 50+ over the course of months, to 60+ within a week. It works like creatine, but doesn't have you put on weight, plus it has some extra's. If you race and take yourself seriously, and consider supplements OK, you need to get in. Some highschool kids tested it double blind vs a placebo of taurine, and the performance increase they got from it in running tests was beyond anything ever gotten in a more scientific test. I just can't print the outcome, it was just off the charts, and more you're expect from even a 42%hc guy, epo'ing to 49.9%, and then blood doping with an extra pint of such blood. That big a gain. Again, I didn't get that huge a gain, but I did break all my recent track training run times, by many seconds. Moved up a groupette in my training group.
If this stuff works for you as it works for some others, moving up a cat may not be all that ambitious.

As I wrote on twitter recently:
Doping : Racers will talk about it amon themselves and managers, trainers, but absolutely deny everything towards the rest of the world.

Supplements : Racers will openly show they stuf to the jury and anti-dopage with all the info they might want to have. Some vague hints towards fans and friends, but absolutely not a word about it towards fellow racers.

Think about it. There ARE pro riders out there on sophisticated supplements programs they've figured out themselves. Putting in serious time to get to that point, and not even considering taking the risk or moral implications of doping.

Are you a supplement retailer by any chance?

 

[forty four]

I'm sure it exists.

Andrew Tilin was a lowly Cat 4 who recently admitted to being on EPO, HGH and few other things. He's now writing a book on it. (I won't be buying it).

rofl classic..

 

[forty four]

Obvious troll story, but a good issue to raise regardless.

I've had several first hand accounts of a (legal) supplement to change a rider, and especially his results, around.

One guy who was never was able to even make it to the final in a crit, takes this supplement (beta-alanine), and manages to hang on, and then use his sprint power. Not after 3 years of racing, but a long, resultless career. There may well be a huge mental boost coming from that. This supplement enhanced sprint length, and mid-race recovery.

I know a lady racer who was never chubby, but dropped 10kg using a single supplement (calcium pyruvate) that really worked for her, although this meant usuing it for 6 months while advised was to use it only 3-4 weeks at a time. She went from an also-ran in national elite races with a good sprint, to someone who'd solo so hard and long that the legendary Van Moorsel was forced to lead the chase. Crits and duathlons were won.

A third supplement (CEE, see below) was tried by a master triathlete, with many years of mediocre results. He'd never used any kind of supplements, let alone dope. Was about to retire as triathlete (so much for so little), but with the supplement, his results suddenly came, with medals and all. He decided to stick with the sport for a couple more years, just to enjoy this late roll he got on.

A fourth supplement (d-ribose) was used by a running couple in their 50's, in hope to recover quicker between runs, and enjoy the sport more often per week. It did half their recovery time, and they doubled their training volume accordingly. Their running speeds went up nicely, jogging became running again.

My own experiences with supplements have been less drastic, but then that's to be expected as I'm genetically quite gifted. Some things will definately help, and when I will take racing real serious again I'll come back to make good use of them. To have my body accept greater training volumes, attain higher strength, recover mid-race, and simply get more O2 in my blood per gasp of breath.

Supplements, if you all of them together, may not be able to beat the effects of well administered EPO or blood doping by itself, but they can change you drastically as a performance athlete. Especially if you're not born to be among the best of the best. Frustratingly though, you need to find what works for your body best. It may be a simple harmless additive that unlocks your potential, or it may be quite complicated. No doping doc to help you with this, just some rare specialists who can advise (and sell) you something to try. I am lucky enough to know one that is also approached by Olympic cyclists.

Latest hit supplement: Creatine Ethylester (CEE). I tried it leading up to some cross-country races (living in a country with little snow, and no ski culture). All I did, was test myself with push-ups. I improve my raps, which I'd already built up to 50+ over the course of months, to 60+ within a week. It works like creatine, but doesn't have you put on weight, plus it has some extra's. If you race and take yourself seriously, and consider supplements OK, you need to get in. Some highschool kids tested it double blind vs a placebo of taurine, and the performance increase they got from it in running tests was beyond anything ever gotten in a more scientific test. I just can't print the outcome, it was just off the charts, and more you're expect from even a 42%hc guy, epo'ing to 49.9%, and then blood doping with an extra pint of such blood. That big a gain. Again, I didn't get that huge a gain, but I did break all my recent track training run times, by many seconds. Moved up a groupette in my training group.
If this stuff works for you as it works for some others, moving up a cat may not be all that ambitious.

As I wrote on twitter recently:
Doping : Racers will talk about it amon themselves and managers, trainers, but absolutely deny everything towards the rest of the world.

Supplements : Racers will openly show they stuf to the jury and anti-dopage with all the info they might want to have. Some vague hints towards fans and friends, but absolutely not a word about it towards fellow racers.

Think about it. There ARE pro riders out there on sophisticated supplements programs they've figured out themselves. Putting in serious time to get to that point, and not even considering taking the risk or moral implications of doping.

yeah i use all you mentioned above and more depending on $$$$$ certainly helps performance and importantly recovery which is itself training. anyways no doubt not blood doping or epo but useful. keep in mind pros take all kind of legal supps too along with the illegal ones.

 

[compete_clean]

I'm sure it exists.

Andrew Tilin was a lowly Cat 4 who recently admitted to being on EPO, HGH and few other things. He's now writing a book on it. (I won't be buying it).

you know a few years ago i wouldn't have believed this.

 

[brianf7]

There is no LAW that stop doping at club level WADA or its affiliates are not alowed in at club events unless they are invited and the club pay for testing
if the guys are at eleite level they are tested regardless .

Not much point in doping to go from D grade to C grade and then B grade just makes life harder.
ASADA and WADA only test at national competition in age groups or open races

If he is doping he must be a dope.

Best advice is let him win a few times and the club handicapper will move him up to B grade then you have got rid of him.

 

[GiantRider]

Although outraged by the original post itself, I managed to read all of the responses before replying myself and was astounded to see that no-one had stated the obvious.

I was outraged by the original post because going from D grade one season to winning C grade the next season sounds like a completely natural progression for any rider looking to take their racing to the next level, and is something worth aspiring to.

What I thought was painfully obvious is that the original poster sounds like the kind of guy that has to bring other people down to make himself feel better. The kind of guy that lodges a formal protest (or proclaims his intention to) after every sprint finish. The kind of guy that other riders just look straight through, when he starts on about his doping conspiracy theories again...

 

[craig1985]

Funny, I started increasing my training, and then I got better, nah, must be the dope that I take.

 

[Realist]

Seriously? You guys think this is serious? Are you completely humorless?

Lighten up for three seconds.

 

[barn yard]

you could go from D to C grade in one season by adding one short & hard ergo session to your normal weekly riding

 

[DirtyWorks]

Take it Easy

Although outraged by the original post itself, I managed to read all of the responses before replying myself and was astounded to see that no-one had stated the obvious.

I was outraged by the original post because going from D grade one season to winning C grade the next season sounds like a completely natural progression for any rider looking to take their racing to the next level, and is something worth aspiring to.

What I thought was painfully obvious is that the original poster sounds like the kind of guy that has to bring other people down to make himself feel better. The kind of guy that lodges a formal protest (or proclaims his intention to) after every sprint finish. The kind of guy that other riders just look straight through, when he starts on about his doping conspiracy theories again...

Slow down there! It wasn't obvious, but I was hinting at it by mentioning the variability in riders at the C-D level. Still, you can't ignore the possibility of doping. The one crit I saw last year had a bunch of hormone therapy recipients in the masters field. I'm only one guy though, so ignore it. Maybe the fact there's a lengthy reply about the latest in questionable supplements in the thread is a better clue?

 

[the delgados]

I'm sure it exists.

Andrew Tilin was a lowly Cat 4 who recently admitted to being on EPO, HGH and few other things. He's now writing a book on it. (I won't be buying it).

My friend works in the publishing industry and she gave me an advanced copy to read.

Tilin didn't take EPO or growth hormone. He took testosterone.

His original plan was to find a recreational doper and chronical thier experiences. When that proved difficult--no one wanted to speak to a writer--he decided to do it himself.

I found the book to be an interesting study of not only it's effects, but the overall efficacy of the growth hormone industry.

 

[the delgados]

P.S.
Joe Papp is featured prominently in Tilin's book.
Apparenlty Tilin interviewed Papp about doping in the pro ranks.

 

[will10]

It happens and probably more than a lot of us are willing to admit.

Dan Staite got caught in this country on EPO. He was targetting the Premier Calendars (highest cat. RRs one-dayers in the UK) but got busted winning a chipper elite race. http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...te-banned-after-testing-positive-for-epo.html

 

[M Sport]

Seriously? You guys think this is serious? Are you completely humorless?

Lighten up for three seconds.

Oh it was funny, no doubt about that. Especially the Phonak jersey part lol.

If anyone for a moment though thinks that riders aren't doping in Melbourne club grade racing, then that is even funnier.

 

[ElChingon]

I guess the guy in question was tested and didn't have any kind of decent numbers for VO2 or anything like that still moved up

Some people have the heart and lungs to eat you alive then you add some training and experience on the bike and well they move up, I don't see anything wrong with moving up from D to C.

Had you said D to Pro then we'd have something, maybe.

 

[leftover pie]

also when he's not in team kit, i've seen him riding in a Phonak jersey.

i giggled