Doping "Family Tree" ?

[Darryl Webster]

I wonder if anyone here has the skills and knowledge to put together a schematic " family tree" of the doping connections of riders and support staff ( DS,s doctors etc) starting from Lance,s post Cancer TDF?
Seems to me the "infection" has spread far and wide into much of the current peloton .
Such a schematic might help give us a bit of clarity as to the breadth of the incision required to try and clean the sport up

 

[bobbins]

Look at the management for every pro tour team.

List the names

Join the dots

2 or 3 degrees of separation

 

[Benotti69]

Look at the management for every pro tour team.

List the names

Join the dots

2 or 3 degrees of separation

I dont see any seperation.

The sport appears to be more less a slurry pit and it seems the general consensus is not to clean it up.

 

[bobbins]

Here's just a few of the top of my head;
Ochowitz
Sciandri
Riis
Guimard
Yates
Brailsford
Millar (Fran)
Ferrari
Del Morel
Leinders
Sutton
Bruyneel
Stevens
White
McQuaid
Other McQuaids
Verbruggen
Armstrong
Rogers
Cooke
Davis
Vino
Basso
DiLuca
Smith (B)
Peiper
Vaughters
Millar (David) St
Rihs
Hamilton
Landis
Unzue
Rominger
That guy who supplied stuff to Ben Johnson apparently had links with cycling

Maybe have a web starting with each team entity and linking the people involved with them at a management level and then highlighting the ones with a dodgy past. Not suggesting that all of the above have a dodgy past, just tried to list as many involved in running teams as possible. Possibly some race organisers too.

What a tangled web.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

This might be worth a look

http://www.dopeology.org/

 

[Caruut]

I thought this seemed like a good idea, so I started doing it. The web is:

A. Depressing
B. A logistical nightmare

If it comes anywhere near completion, I might try and post it, just because it's a bit interesting, but I keep remembering new dopers. Does anyone know who the team docs for Bjarne-era T-Mobile were?

 

[luckyboy]

Andreas Schmidt & Lothar Heinrich. Jeff D'Hont a soigneur.

 

[Tinman]

I thought this seemed like a good idea, so I started doing it.

Good on ya. I have thought about this also for a fair while now, havent had the energy.

If I were to do it I'd start with a few teams & riders. I would start around 1993-1994 with Lance, and the most well known riders in his sphere. Stick to the USA/UK/ANZ riders/teams. Can always do the dutch/belgian/french/spanish/italians later. Different kettle of fish & expands the project too wide too early?

Include Riis, Leinders, Bruyneel, etc, all the non-english that were part of it though. Also may be worthwile including soigneurs/mechanics (as they tend to follow the riders and have the inside scoop) although again it would expand the project.

Good luck.

 

[esafosfina]

This might be worth a look

http://www.dopeology.org/

Good site... some notable omissions though.

 

[Caruut]

Good on ya. I have thought about this also for a fair while now, havent had the energy.

If I were to do it I'd start with a few teams & riders. I would start around 1993-1994 with Lance, and the most well known riders in his sphere. Stick to the USA/UK/ANZ riders/teams. Can always do the dutch/belgian/french/spanish/italians later. Different kettle of fish & expands the project too wide too early?

Include Riis, Leinders, Bruyneel, etc, all the non-english that were part of it though. Also may be worthwile including soigneurs/mechanics (as they tend to follow the riders and have the inside scoop) although again it would expand the project.

Good luck.

I started, but it kind of ended up focused more on the last 10 years or so, just because I know so much more about that than Lance's early career.

Will put a draft up online in a few minutes, did it in word so have to convert to an image..

 

[Caruut]

Well, here we have a rough version of it. I may have made some glaring omissions, though if you think I've missed a link between two people on there already it may just be two dimensions holding me back. I've avoided having any lines crossing - sacrificing comprehensiveness for comprehensibility. If anyone wants a .docx or .doc of it to play around with and make your own improvements and revisions then send me a PM and I'll email it to you.

I've tried to make the links somewhat relevant - for example Boonen receives links to Lefevre and Ibarguren but his one year with Bruyneel doesn't merit a link. The focus of inclusion has been on the most successful riders and the biggest doping scandals - While Galimzyanov wouldn't feature without his EPO positive, Nick Nuyens appears solely due to his link with Riis and monument win. Others, like Lance, Alberto and Rasmussen make the cut by being both famous and infamous.

While it doesn't contain any real new information, while making it I was struck by quite how interlinked the doping mess in cycling is. Note that inclusion on this list in no way means a cyclist has been doping. If a cyclist is clean then it perhaps illustrates how close temptation is at all times - even for the strongest of wills. Finally, apologies for the large image, but frankly resizing it makes it impossible to read and as you can probably tell, blue is a rider, red a manager and green a doctor or soigneur. Enjoy, and let me know your thoughts.

EDIT: I've reduced it to 60% size and included instead a link to the full-size version.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Worth adding in the T-Mob/Columbia links - Holm, Aldag, Sean Yates/Michael Barry.

Hamilton's Phonak links as well

Rogers also has links to Ferrari

 

[esafosfina]

Museeuw - Van Mol - Plankaert...

Good job with the 'tree'... could go on and on and on...!

 

[Caruut]

Museeuw - Van Mol - Plankaert...

Good job with the 'tree'... could go on and on and on...!

Van Mol and Plankaert! Yes, forgot those two.

Have just added in Yates and am about to do Aldag - sadly Mick Rogers <-> Ferrari was one of the links that geometry decided would not get shown.

 

[racyrichuk]

There's so so much more that it's an impossible task.
But to mention one topical case - O'Grady was at Cofidis in 2004 with Millar and l'Equipier, Massimilliano Lelli. And Matt White! Lelli's widely assumed to be a supplier. And probably still is in the Italian Fondo scene.

 

[dougvdh]

Might be worth (for the sake of clarity) to use two different bubble styles - square boxes for those linked but not implicated, rounded corners (for taking shortcuts) for those who have been implicated / confessed to doping or facilitating doping others.

While I saw your note about being on the chart doesn't necessarily imply doping, it would be nice to see at a glance which camp riders are in.

Thanks for the hard work so far!

 

[Caruut]

There's so so much more that it's an impossible task.
But to mention one topical case - O'Grady was at Cofidis in 2004 with Millar and l'Equipier, Massimilliano Lelli. And Matt White! Lelli's widely assumed to be a supplier. And probably still is in the Italian Fondo scene.

Yeah, wasn't sure where to put O'Grady, and kind of wanted to link him up, along with Matt White, to the OGRE bunch. Just put in Tony Martin, Matthew Goss and André Greipel (along with Cav the stars of HTC) and linked them to Holm and Aldag.

Zabel is coaching elsewhere now, isn't he?

Here is a Google doc of it. The formatting is off in GDocs, so I've disabled editing. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9V_kMmCMEAiSlI1R0ZVQ1p1bDA/edit

 

[L'arriviste]

Yeah, wasn't sure where to put O'Grady, and kind of wanted to link him up, along with Matt White, to the OGRE bunch. Just put in Tony Martin, Matthew Goss and André Greipel (along with Cav the stars of HTC) and linked them to Holm and Aldag.

Zabel is coaching elsewhere now, isn't he?

Here is a Google doc of it. The formatting is off in GDocs, so I've disabled editing. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9V_kMmCMEAiSlI1R0ZVQ1p1bDA/edit

Zabel is with Katusha now, isn't he? That will be a rich source of new bubbles for the diagram!

 

[Caruut]

Zabel is with Katusha now, isn't he? That will be a rich source of new bubbles for the diagram!

Unless you've got a rich source of new dimensions, I'm not sure I can handle Zabel-Katusha

Oh and many thanks for dopeology! Making the chart was a lot easier with it.

 

[the asian]

Good chart and Good effort!

Liguigas and Caisse have trained under Ferrari until at least 2008.

Piepoli is Purito's coach.

Hamilton was a client of Fuentes and that could be better reflected in the chart.
Vino apparently has been a client of both Ferrari and Fuentes, Vino in fact has been a close client of Ferrari, so ,may be you can reflect it. No harm in including Kaschenkin too.

 

[Caruut]

Good chart and Good effort!

Liguigas and Caisse have trained under Ferrari until at least 2008.

Piepoli is Purito's coach.

Hamilton was a client of Fuentes and that could be better reflected in the chart.
Vino apparently has been a client of both Ferrari and Fuentes, Vino in fact has been a close client of Ferrari, so ,may be you can reflect it. No harm in including Kaschenkin too.

We're gonna need a bigger chart..

Also, Piepoli coaching Purito?! Do you have a link for that?

The Vino-Ferrari link doesn't surprise me (after all, he spent time under Hog), didn't really know about it though.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Vino also links back into T-Mob as well.

Someone else, Max Sciandri Carrera -> Motorola -> Lampre -> CSC -> British cycling -> now BMC

Plenty of rumours about him - think he was a Ferrari client as well.

 

[the asian]

We're gonna need a bigger chart..

Also, Piepoli coaching Purito?! Do you have a link for that?

The Vino-Ferrari link doesn't surprise me (after all, he spent time under Hog), didn't really know about it though.

Vino links to Ferrari are in the affidavits. Leipheimer affidavit (No 68)

 

[Fidolix]

I wonder if anyone here has the skills and knowledge to put together a schematic " family tree" of the doping connections of riders and support staff ( DS,s doctors etc) starting from Lance,s post Cancer TDF?
Seems to me the "infection" has spread far and wide into much of the current peloton .
Such a schematic might help give us a bit of clarity as to the breadth of the incision required to try and clean the sport up

Wouldn´t it be a hell of lot easier just to make a tree of the known none-dopers, it would not even make you sweat, the rest would be the obvious, drag lines to and from everybody, there you go...

 

[Darryl Webster]

Brilliant effort Caruut! Thank you.

May I share elsewhere?