Doping "Family Tree" ?

[masking_agent]

That guy who supplied stuff to Ben Johnson apparently had links with cycling
.

the late great Charlie Francis and Dr. Jamie Astafan. Two of my faves.

 

[Don Quixote]

Well, here we have a rough version of it.

Wow, great effort! Very interesting indeed.

 

[bobbins]

the late great Charlie Francis and Dr. Jamie Astafan. Two of my faves.

Angus Fraser, named in LA Confidential I think. Worked with Brian (Lance had me fired because I was so clean!) Smith

 

[blackcat]

Vino also links back into T-Mob as well.

Someone else, Max Sciandri Carrera -> Motorola -> Lampre -> CSC -> British cycling -> now BMC

Plenty of rumours about him - think he was a Ferrari client as well.

nah, Luigi Cecchini

 

[Tinman]

Sensational effort Caruut, amazing.

Would it help clarity to do one for say every approx. 10 years? So assume this one covers 2000-2012, also do one for say 1990-2000?

 

[sittingbison]

We're gonna need a bigger chart...

hehehe reminds me of the first episode of Alias when Jennifer Garner proudly displays her chart of linked spies, and they then unroll for her the REAL chart which is about 50 times bigger and more complex

 

[Franklin]

Manolo Saiz, mentor of bruyneel and the oft forgotten Erik Breukink

Who then became leader of the management triumvirate of Rabo with Theo de Rooij and Geert Leinders.

 

[JJGisberts]

Manolo Saiz, mentor of bruyneel and the oft forgotten Erik Breukink

Who then became leader of the management triumvirate of Rabo with Theo de Rooij and Geert Leinders.

And to be fair, just like Theo de Rooij en Geert Leinders years ago, he is sacked by the team this autumn. Just like Adri van Houwelingen. So most of the connections in the team with the whole Rasmussen era has ended.

 

[Caruut]

Brilliant effort Caruut! Thank you.

May I share elsewhere?

Yes, by all means share elsewhere.

 

[bobbins]

Just been tweeted by @tourdejose a Eurosport commentator!

 

[pelodee]

Angus Fraser, named in LA Confidential I think. Worked with Brian (Lance had me fired because I was so clean!) Smith

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

Appendices and Supporting Materials > Appendix Y (Armstrong & Tailwind v. SCA Productions) > Respondant Exhibits > R025.pdf

This is LA Confidential. Angus Fraser appears on pages 14,15, and 32.

...and of course in From Lance to Landis too.

 

[reginagold]

Of course there is the thread of connection from Eddy B offering to boost the blood of all members of the 1984 USA Olympic Cycling Team...some said no thanks but "learned" from the process, including Chris Carmichael, later national coach over one young Wonderboy. Dr. Falsetti, provider of the 1984 transfusions, later provided training programs to Wonderboy early in his career, perhaps as early as his triathlon beginnings.

For the 1984 USA Olympic Team boosting program see:

http://www.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/1/index.htm

It talks about the desire by some to match the Russians and others at this technique. Eddy B would have known much about the state of this art while he was in Poland as the Eastern Bloc shared much "intelligence" as they strove to prove through athletics their system of government was somehow "better."

Anybody ever read an old book titled "Miracle Machine" on how a little country like East Germany produced so many Olympic medals per capita? That's the sea Eddy B floated away from to land in the US.

 

[bobbins]

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

Appendices and Supporting Materials > Appendix Y (Armstrong & Tailwind v. SCA Productions) > Respondant Exhibits > R025.pdf

This is LA Confidential. Angus Fraser appears on pages 14,15, and 32.

...and of course in From Lance to Landis too.

Needs adding to the chart with a link to Brian Smith.

After her outburst yesterday would be useful to add Fran Millar with a link to St David, Dave B and whichever other persons she has links to as a rider agent. Very incestuous relationships there by the looks of it.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Apologies if already mentioned.

Is is possible to colour code the text for known / verified dopers versus those that are linked but not verified?

Perhaps Lance's box should be a crux.

 

[Caruut]

Apologies if already mentioned.

Is is possible to colour code the text for known / verified dopers versus those that are linked but not verified?

Perhaps Lance's box should be a crux.

I could, but I'm not sure about whether or not to do this. Where do we draw the line, for example? Nibali is known to have worked with Ferrari, which I see as pretty damning, but that's my own spin on it. Until the last few months I would have had to imply that Floyd was more guilty than Lance (in a sense). For now I think the best way of doing this is just to show the professional connections between riders, managers and doctors and allow people to research the individuals involved.

If someone wants to produce a version with that, then by all means download the Google docs file and modify it as you wish, and feel free to publish it wherever.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I could, but I'm not sure about whether or not to do this. Where do we draw the line, for example?

What about those who have been officially sanctioned then?

There are many of us that deal within our own networks and seek to educate others, but it helps to be able to distinguish concrete information from speculation (however valid or loose that speculation may be).

This forum seems to have a pretty good handle on stuff and some well informed people who seemingly have the time spare to devote to it, it is also rife with anonymous speculation, and it is not so easy to sift out the reality from the fiction for those of us who are not full time readers of this one topic. The noise to signal ratio is very high.

Since I prefer to be identified and stand behind what I say, I do like it to be valid and correct, or at least to identify what's known/factual from what's opinion/speculation.

It's just an idea, I'm not concerned either way but such a chart I think would be more useful for a wider audience, however that may not have been its intended original purpose.

Even better would be if the information was in a database format, so better analysis could be done. You could enter a name, and the doping tree can be auto-constructed with that name in the middle. Hyperlinks etc.

Now that's a lot of work I presume, but heck rather than everyone *****ing and moaning, perhaps steps towards developing an intelligence system to help fix the problem might be a better use of people's energy. Then again, I suppose for some this is still just another form of entertainment.

 

[pelodee]

This forum seems to have a pretty good handle on stuff and some well informed people who seemingly have the time spare to devote to it, it is also rife with anonymous speculation, and it is not so easy to sift out the reality from the fiction for those of us who are not full time readers of this one topic. The noise to signal ratio is very high.

Since I prefer to be identified and stand behind what I say, I do like it to be valid and correct, or at least to identify what's known/factual from what's opinion/speculation.

Very good post, this would be the way forward.

 

[Caruut]

What about those who have been officially sanctioned then?

Yes, possible. I don't particularly want to be a custodian of the "official doping tree", I just had a spare afternoon and thought it sounded interesting. As far as a database goes there is always Larri's excellent http://www.dopeology.org to refer to, and much of the information on the chart not plucked from my own memory is from there.

There are many of us that deal within our own networks and seek to educate others, but it helps to be able to distinguish concrete information from speculation (however valid or loose that speculation may be).

This forum seems to have a pretty good handle on stuff and some well informed people who seemingly have the time spare to devote to it, it is also rife with anonymous speculation, and it is not so easy to sift out the reality from the fiction for those of us who are not full time readers of this one topic. The noise to signal ratio is very high.

Since I prefer to be identified and stand behind what I say, I do like it to be valid and correct, or at least to identify what's known/factual from what's opinion/speculation.

It's just an idea, I'm not concerned either way but such a chart I think would be more useful for a wider audience, however that may not have been its intended original purpose.

Even better would be if the information was in a database format, so better analysis could be done. You could enter a name, and the doping tree can be auto-constructed with that name in the middle. Hyperlinks etc.

Now that's a lot of work I presume, but heck rather than everyone *****ing and moaning, perhaps steps towards developing an intelligence system to help fix the problem might be a better use of people's energy. Then again, I suppose for some this is still just another form of entertainment.

I'm not really technically proficient enough to code a database that would, at the click of a button create its own web. I don't know what my chart is for, really. I suppose I would like people to see just how close everyone still is to the problems of the past, and how it's hard to move on when the rot runs that deep.

 

[Caruut]

Have decided to do another version with the official sanctions on it - red text will indicate someone who has been officially sanctioned, and a red link with indicate a professional connection that was active at the time of a sanctioned offence. Will update it and perhaps try and reference it at some point when I have free time.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Someone who can be linked in to more teams.

Our old friend Aldag comes bouncing back.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/aldag-takes-on-new-role-at-omega-pharma-quickstep

 

[oldcrank]

I started, but it kind of ended up focused more on the last 10 years or so, just because I know so much more about that than Lance's early career.

Any doping tree that starts with Lance Armstrong should include
Eddy B., but then your tree would have to include Greg Lemond.

 

[Caruut]

Any doping tree that starts with Lance Armstrong should include
Eddy B., but then your tree would have to include Greg Lemond.

You seriously need to get over this LeMond obsession. Seek help.