Doping in Soccer/Football

[Libertine Seguros]

not to mention the national team being european and world champion. makes the record even more unique.
but probably nothing to see here folks.
more talent. better training facilities. more training hours. better match-mentality.



One would expect such one-nation-dominance in quirky sports such as long-distance ice-skating, but definitely not in football.



the past five years or so, ay?
Didn't Barca start shopping at Fuentes' place in around 2005?
Probably a coincidence.

question remains: what are the spanish having that others aren't? EPO? HGH? The combination? Or does the secret lie in the quantity rather than quality of doping?

We've been through this before.

Anyhow - countries of teams in last 8 of CL:

2012: Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1, Germany 1, Italy 1, Cyprus 1
2011: England 3, Spain 2, Italy 1, Germany 1, Ukraine 1
2010: England 2, France 2, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Russia 1
2009: England 4, Spain 2, Germany 1, Portugal 1
2008: England 4, Spain 1, Italy 1, Germany 1, Turkey 1
2007: England 3, Italy 2, Spain 1, Germany 1, Netherlands 1
2006: Italy 3, Spain 2, England 1, France 1, Portugal 1

So actually, it seems that this is the first year in some time that the Premier League hasn't been the dominant factor out there. Maybe the Spanish have improved their doping, or maybe those British teams are just still relying on those same players who've been carrying them for the last decade and are now getting pretty old.

England has dominated European football for several years now, but all of a sudden somebody else does it and it must be because of doping programs? How was it not obvious one-nation dominance that was comical and screamed "obvious doping" when the English teams were doing it?

Come on, wake up. The Spanish teams of this year are no cleaner or dirtier than the English teams of the last few years with such paragons of clean competition as Carlos Queiroz, Rio Ferdinand and Nani involved. Yes, there's doping in Spanish football, but after several years of Premier League hegemony, to start calling out another country because they're outperforming the Premier League teams for the first time in six years is a bit off.

SOMETHING made those Premier League teams keep beating the Spanish and Italian teams we now know were doping.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I am pretty sure that Barcelona are on a good doping program, but they are not the only ones. They tried to sign Eufemiano Fuentes twice before Laporta arrived. That is well documented. I can even provide the radio excerpt if anyone is interested.

I am! I've seen that claim many times, but I've never seen it sourced.

 

[sniper]

We've been through this before.


England has dominated European football for several years now, but all of a sudden somebody else does it and it must be because of doping programs? How was it not obvious one-nation dominance that was comical and screamed "obvious doping" when the English teams were doing it?

Come on, wake up. The Spanish teams of this year are no cleaner or dirtier than the English teams of the last few years with such paragons of clean competition as Carlos Queiroz, Rio Ferdinand and Nani involved. Yes, there's doping in Spanish football, but after several years of Premier League hegemony, to start calling out another country because they're outperforming the Premier League teams for the first time in six years is a bit off.

SOMETHING made those Premier League teams keep beating the Spanish and Italian teams we now know were doping.

your stats don't work. they don't include the national teams, or the fact that barca has been uniquely dominant over the past years.

As I said already, the english premier league dominance can very clearly be traced back to financial factors. That also explains why the success of the premier league was never matched by the english national team.

Why is Spain dominant at all levels (clubs AND national)? Training facilities?
And no, the dominance isn't something of this year only. It's ever since 2008, with barca completely dominating club football, and the national team extraordinarily superior on a global level.

 

[hrotha]

Again, Barça forms the backbone of the Spanish national team. Barça's success translates directly into the success of the national team. Are you aware that Barça and Madrid are typically light years ahead of all the others in the league tables?

 

[sniper]

Again, Barça forms the backbone of the Spanish national team. Barça's success translates directly into the success of the national team. Are you aware that Barça and Madrid are typically light years ahead of all the others in the league tables?

messi is barca's backbone. he's argentinian.

xavi is part of spain's backbone. he started scoring twice the number of goals per season as of 2005.

barca's and spain's dominance is unknown in the history of soccer.
in the early 70s, Ajax dominated, but the Dutch were beaten in the 74 finals by the Germans. Bayern Munich dominated late 70s, but the argentinians won the world cup in 78.
i.o.w. this type of dominance of one flag / one nation in international football that Spain is showing is unknown in the history of soccer, as afar as I can tell.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

messi is barca's backbone. he's argentinian.

Messi is much of a product of Xavi/Iniesta. Just look at his performances outside Barca.

 

[Andynonomous]

It's pretty silly for the apologists to deny that Spain isn't dominant in football today.

 

[Caruut]

Messi is much of a product of Xavi/Iniesta. Just look at his performances outside Barca.

He has never shone for Argentina, but they are a side severely lacking in high-quality midfield players or full-backs, but with more world-class strikers than you can shake a stick at.

It's kind of obvious that without the quality around him, in terms of service from Xavi and Iniesta, and space-making from players like Dani Alves, someone is not going to be quite as lethal, especially when they have been trained to be the sharp end of a weapon based mainly on teamwork. Contrast this with Maradona, who spent many of his golden years at Napoli, and dragged the club to success not seen before nor since. At club level, he worked in a system where his individual genius was what drove the team, and was thus used to working magic on his own in the national side, like Messi needs to.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

your stats don't work. they don't include the national teams, or the fact that barca has been uniquely dominant over the past years.

As I said already, the english premier league dominance can very clearly be traced back to financial factors. That also explains why the success of the premier league was never matched by the english national team.

Why is Spain dominant at all levels (clubs AND national)? Training facilities?
And no, the dominance isn't something of this year only. It's ever since 2008, with barca completely dominating club football, and the national team extraordinarily superior on a global level.

So, in your opinion, the Premier League clubs did not use any underhanded means, yet were still stomping all over these Spanish teams that were doping since 2005 until this year?

The Spanish teams know their way around a doping program. But so do the Italian ones, and yes, so do the English ones. But the Spanish teams were likely using doping before then, and weren't as successful - Arsène Wenger's quotes about players he'd bought showing signs of EPO use date to 2004.

Also, what goes for Barcelona and Real Madrid doesn't always go for the rest of the league; the Spanish league is a bit like the Scottish one in that regard - always the same two teams in it. They are always Spain's representation in the last 8 of the CL, whereas the Premier League has seen four different teams in it at various points, sometimes all together.

Money (which is what the Premier League's dominance was based on) can get you so far (buying the best players), but that's no good if they keep conceding late goals to teams who are also stacked with world class talents, and are doping.

My argument has never been based on stating that Spain isn't dominating... but what is this dominance? They have 2 teams in the CL and 3 in the Europa League. A few years ago you had 4 English teams in the CL quarter finals and 3 in the semis. And these guys were clean as a whistle, while the Spanish teams that beat them are obvious dopers? Maybe both sets of players are doing the same that they ever did, but the core of players that the Premier League has based its strength on are getting old now, but because the Premier League doesn't have the same strong cantera system it often has to buy in replacements (which has always partially explained why England were unable to duplicate the success of their league, while the Spanish are - look at the % of English players in the Premier League as opposed to Spanish players in La Liga) or the youngsters require more blooding.

Also worth remembering on this is that in the Spanish league system, reserve teams play in the same leagues but not in the same tier, a bit like cycling. Therefore Bilbao Athletic, Athletic Bilbao's farm team, play in the third division, Barcelona B play in the second. This means that the young players have some experience of playing in a better level league than in the UK where, unless they get loaned out, they go straight from playing reserves games in non-league format to Premier League level, whereupon it's sink or swim.

I fully expect that every single major team in Europe knows its way around a doping program. Some are more sophisticated than others, but I cannot believe that, for example, Manchester United, don't have any doping whatsoever and just get by on "working hard".

 

[sniper]

(...)
The Spanish teams know their way around a doping program. But so do the Italian ones, and yes, so do the English ones. But the Spanish teams were likely using doping before then, and weren't as successful - Arsène Wenger's quotes about players he'd bought showing signs of EPO use date to 2004.
(...)
I fully expect that every single major team in Europe knows its way around a doping program. Some are more sophisticated than others, but I cannot believe that, for example, Manchester United, don't have any doping whatsoever and just get by on "working hard".

needless to say, I fully agree. Nowhere did I plant the hypothesis that the Prem. League is clean. They clearly aren't.

The question I'm asking is: what are the Spanish having that other European teams currently aren't having? Is it a matter of PED-quantity or PED-quality?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

needless to say, I fully agree. Nowhere did I plant the hypothesis that the Prem. League is clean. They clearly aren't.

The question I'm asking is: what are the Spanish having that other European teams currently aren't having? Is it a matter of PED-quantity or PED-quality?

But is a change in doping clearly responsible? After all, Barcelona have had their contacts since 2005, no? Why were they not able to beat the Premier League teams then, but are stomping everybody now? It's possible that the change is not simply a dope to dope one, but there are other factors involved. Certainly their style of football lends itself to doping being very effective, but there are other factors, such as the quality of their cantera, the higher level of football that their reserves - often filled with these cantera products - can play at without being loaned out, thus developing cohesion with one another before being thrown in at the deep end in La Liga, or the increasing age of the core of those Premier League teams that recently dominated, that come into it; and as the Premier League's dominance was based on money, perhaps the financial crisis means they are unable to replace the players with similar quality as it's too costly, or their advantage has been reduced by it.

There is undoubtedly doping in Spanish football. But there was undoubtedly doping in Spanish football when they were getting stomped all over in the European tournaments, so it is by no means the only explanation for how they've come to pre-eminence. Likely it is only part of the answer.

 

[sniper]

But is a change in doping clearly responsible? After all, Barcelona have had their contacts since 2005, no? Why were they not able to beat the Premier League teams then, but are stomping everybody now? It's possible that the change is not simply a dope to dope one, but there are other factors involved. Certainly their style of football lends itself to doping being very effective, but there are other factors, such as the quality of their cantera, the higher level of football that their reserves - often filled with these cantera products - can play at without being loaned out, thus developing cohesion with one another before being thrown in at the deep end in La Liga, or the increasing age of the core of those Premier League teams that recently dominated, that come into it; and as the Premier League's dominance was based on money, perhaps the financial crisis means they are unable to replace the players with similar quality as it's too costly, or their advantage has been reduced by it.

There is undoubtedly doping in Spanish football. But there was undoubtedly doping in Spanish football when they were getting stomped all over in the European tournaments, so it is by no means the only explanation for how they've come to pre-eminence. Likely it is only part of the answer.

Well, i agree with most of what you say here.

Barca and Madrid have of course always been contenders for all European titles and Spain has always been an outsider at tournaments. So, indeed, the success of Spain is not as sudden and unexpected as, say, Greece winning in 2004. So perhaps the Spaniards have simply caught up with the rest of Europe in terms of PED use and are now maximally benefitting from their traditional focus on technique, skill and cantera, combined with a professional program including optimal endurance PEDs.

Still, my gutfeeling (and admittedly it's just a gutfeeling) says that the rise of Spain to the absolute top of world soccer correlates with a more drastic change in 'regime', some sort of 'new'/experimental program, probably first experimented with at FC Barca (and now spreading throughout La Primera).

For instance, I assume the willingness to take risks and experiment with PEDs is much higher in Spain than in, say, England, simply because the social acceptance of doping appears to be higher in Spain than in England (recall for instance King Carlos and Zapatero both publicly supporting Contador).

We know also that Xavi and Messi use(d) HGH, we know that for sure.
And Barca may well be using HGH more systematically already at the cantera-level. Could it be that HGH is not as widespread yet in England? Or is that wishful thinking?

By the way, I also assume Mourinho's success at different clubs is related not as much to him having above-average training skills but to him being accompanied by a very professional team of doctors.
Do you, Libertine (or someone else), perhaps know whether trainers/coaches bring along their own medical team when they switch clubs?

 

[Caruut]

Many top managers tend to have a large number of backroom staff whom they work with from place to place. I would imagine that team doctors are sometimes included.

 

[euanli]

I think when we talk about doping in football the main benefit is the recovery. Barca have always had skilful players, we know their youth coaching and training is top notch if not best in the world and they also have a brilliant football education programme. However it seems physically they have moved on substantially, they aren't just skilful players they are doing it with strength and speed repetitively.

You cannot train skills while the muscles are tired, PEDs reduces the recovery period and allow players to continue with large amounts of skill training as well as hard physical training.

I'd also argue that PEDs probably help in the classroom as well. Less tired/strained players they better state they are to mentally learn.

 

[Albatros]

Real Madrid this season are the kings of intense football. They started in preseason like if they have been preparing for months when in fact they were touring all over the world ( a nice way to get your fitness levels up and running btw). And almost when the season is over they are still playing at full pelt, with Cristiano, a wannabe good winger in his teens now converted in the reincarnation of Pele, scoring goals like if there was no tomorrow playing from a wide position.

Professional football these days is as artificial as cycling during the EPO era, and curiously with many similarities in the performance stakes. Time trialists doing fantastically well in the mountains? Well now you have footballers who are speed testers and at the same time can keep running like marathon athlets the whole game every three days.

And even being a Barca fan I agre that it is not all about class what has make of this Barcelona team a trohy winning machine since the mid 2000's. Suddenly I see Xavi or Puyol run more in their 30's than when they were in their mid twenties. And it is not that there were not at it then.

I remember we Barca fans had discusssions , that we were not physically good enough with Xavi in midfield (his class was always there) .

Then Guardiola arrives and not only Xavi continues to excel but next to him two players like Iniesta and Busquets are played who are not by any means the prototype of great athletes. And the curious thing is that our team bites in midfield like no other.

Well this season less so until recently. I wonder if there was a scare with Abidal cancer or other PEDs resting issues were involved.

And as I said, watch out for Mourinho's Real Madrid, a manager who learned much of his trade at Barca, although his style of play is very different.

It is curious that this season Real MAdrid have been the best team in the world (except when playing Barca ) and have also showed more physical endeavour than Barca.

So no matter the style of play , what it seems to be the winning formula is that the football played is physically very intense and obviously you need to have quality to play that particular style. But with no intensity you will not win anything no matter how technically good you are.

 

[sniper]

I remember we Barca fans had discusssions , that we were not physically good enough with Xavi in midfield (his class was always there) .

Then Guardiola arrives and not only Xavi continues to excel but next to him two players like Iniesta and Busquets are played who are not by any means the prototype of great athletes. And the curious thing is that our team bites in midfield like no other.

exactly this.

Xavi's peak in physical fitness starting in the Rijkaard era is significant. He's scored the double amount of goals per season post-2005 compared to pre-2005.
Indeed Xavi's class was always there, but one used to be skeptical whether he could compete with physical midfielders of the likes of Viera.

(p.s. I agree with the rest of your post as well.)

 

[Albatros]

I am! I've seen that claim many times, but I've never seen it sourced.

It is an audio link from the top Spanish radio station at the time, Cadena SER. It is obviously in Spanish.

One of the journalists mentioned that he even saw Eufemiano at the Camp Nou. Eventually Eufemiano declined as he had other commitments and wasn't ready to move to Barcelona as Nunez, barcelona president at the time, apparently wanted. He recommended though, a certain Sabino Padilla , but the Basque preferred Athletic Bilbao, who did very well by the way under his services.

Alas, one of his players got caught for nandrolona use, Gourpegui, but a certain Marcos Maynar a prfessor from a Spanish University tried to convince the authorities that Gourpeguis nadrolone was endogenous, but with no success.

Also, this Carlos Maynar bloke used to analyse Real Madrid players urine samples, that said by another radio journalist of which I have the link too.

The funny thing is that he was trying to defend Real Madrid and football in general, mentioning that Maynar was just analysing urine samples, nothing else

MAYNAR was also the team doctor of a Portuguese cycling team where one of their riders died from Peds usage and got banned for I believe 10 years. Also ARD, a German TV channel, accused Maynar of offering his services to professional cycling teams to perform biological controls using the same techniques the the UCI use in their biological passport.

So we have come full circle, haven't we?

 

[sniper]

It is an audio link from the top Spanish radio station at the time, Cadena SER. It is obviously in Spanish.

One of the journalists mentioned that he even saw Eufemiano at the Camp Nou. Eventually Eufemiano declined as he had other commitments and wasn't ready to move to Barcelona as Nunez, barcelona president at the time, apparently wanted. He recommended though, a certain Sabino Padilla , but the Basque preferred Athletic Bilbao, who did very well by the way under his services.

Alas, one of his players got caught for nandrolona use, Gourpegui, but a certain Marcos Maynar a prfessor from a Spanish University tried to convince the authorities that Gourpeguis nadrolone was endogenous, but with no success.

Also, this Carlos Maynar bloke used to analyse Real Madrid players urine samples, that said by another radio journalist of which I have the link too.

The funny thing is that he was trying to defend Real Madrid and football in general, mentioning that Maynar was just analysing urine samples, nothing else

MAYNAR was also the team doctor of a Portuguese cycling team where one of their riders died from Peds usage and got banned for I believe 10 years. Also ARD, a German TV channel, accused Maynar of offering his services to professional cycling teams to perform biological controls using the same techniques the the UCI use in their biological passport.

So we have come full circle, haven't we?

again a very interesting post.

one question I wanted to ask:
what is it with footballplayers and nandrolon? Why is nandrolon the only PED they get caught for?

 

[Caruut]

again a very interesting post.

one question I wanted to ask:
what is it with footballplayers and nandrolon? Why is nandrolon the only PED they get caught for?

It does seem to be very common, doesn't it?

It's not just footballers though, a lot of other sports which don't have many positives seem to get people testing positive for nandrolone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone#Publicized_cases

This line is taken from the Wikipedia article on Nandrolone (though it is unsourced);

"Mass Spectrometry is also used to detect small samples of nandrolone in urine samples, as it has a unique molar mass."

This might make it easier to test for, so more positives, though it generally works the other way - easy tests means that no-one uses it.

The article also states, rather conflictingly (but this time sourced), that the tests for nandrolone have been proven to be faulty. This might give banned athletes a legal loophole to wriggle out of, even if they test positive.

 

[hrotha]

again a very interesting post.

one question I wanted to ask:
what is it with footballplayers and nandrolon? Why is nandrolon the only PED they get caught for?

Because they don't test for stuff like HGH, and they do very few blood tests, and always with an advance warning.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

The Pescara-Livorno game in seria b has been suspended because Piermario Morosini needed to be resuscitated. I am not saying its because of doping.

http://www.repubblica.it/sport/calc...ews/morosini_malore_livorno-33307863/?ref=twh

why does it keep happening?

 

[peloton]

The Pescara-Livorno game in seria b has been suspended because Piermario Morosini needed to be resuscitated. I am not saying its because of doping.

http://www.repubblica.it/sport/calc...ews/morosini_malore_livorno-33307863/?ref=twh

why does it keep happening?

He died.

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/14042012/58/serie-serie-b-star-dies-heart-attack-pitch.html

 

[Zam_Olyas]

He died.

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/14042012/58/serie-serie-b-star-dies-heart-attack-pitch.html

Yea, very sad. RIP.

 

[blackcat]

again a very interesting post.

one question I wanted to ask:
what is it with footballplayers and nandrolon? Why is nandrolon the only PED they get caught for?

long half life. Stanozolol has even longer half life, they wont be using that.

 

[Stingray34]

The Pescara-Livorno game in seria b has been suspended because Piermario Morosini needed to be resuscitated. I am not saying its because of doping.

http://www.repubblica.it/sport/calc...ews/morosini_malore_livorno-33307863/?ref=twh

why does it keep happening?

Exactly, a very pertinent question. The number of heart attacks for professional players on the field is just staggering over the last 10 years, and that's not just because they're more widely reported than before.

The answer may not be so straightfoward. There's possibly a few PhD's in the offing on this.