Doping in Soccer/Football

[The Hitch]

Nobody has suggested otherwise, and yet a few are persisting in misinterpreting what has been written. Why?

see my earlier post. mambo is all about deliberately painting the clinic as something it is not.

As i predicted he did not respond to a single of the posts (frrom you me and ls) that called him out on his lies.

And yet back he is to say the same things all over again purely to annoy people.

What is that word with a t that people usually call such behaviour ?

 

[ramjambunath]

unclemonty-
Aye, I'm not a fairytale believer to think that the sport is clean, but in this case, as with most others, there is nearly zero tangible evidence. Till there is, these insinuations are just baseless speculation.

 

[The Hitch]

It's not ranting. If, when a person is fighting for his life and before his heart has even been restarted, a person indulges in innuendo and insinuation without any effort to learn the actual facts, then that person is not a decent human being and needs to reflect on how they became so badly warped. They can bleat on about 'free speech' and 'important discussions' all they like, but when someone behaves like an a-hole, they shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them for it.

No thats not what you are doing. stop lying.

You are accusing everyone who has posted in this topic of attacking muamba and when we point out that someof us have not discussed him or his condition yet alone tried to link o doping you show pictures of dead young people and tell us we are against them too.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

see my earlier post. mambo is all about deliberately painting the clinic as something it is not.

As i predicted he did not respond to a single of the posts (frrom you me and ls) that called him out on his lies.

And yet back he is to say the same things all over again purely to annoy people.

What is that word with a t that people usually call such behaviour ?

a-hole?

@mambo95 I laughed at the genetics quip, deserved in view of my snide remarks.
On a more serious note, both sides of this debate see the other as seriously misguided. Implying that some are not decent human beings is out of line in my view. The discussion would not be so heated if people from both sides didn't care about the subject.

 

[Caruut]

snipped, as my phone can't handle much text

I have already discussed this with my dad. His reaction was 'Interesting. There do seem to be rather too many of these deaths, don't there'. I would happily discuss these things with friends that I knew would listen to what I was saying, rather than turn things into an emotional slanging match.

In fact, wanting to avoid that emotive slanging match is exactly why I posted this idea on CN, not a footballl forum. You know as well as I that doping discussion simply does not exist within football. I thought this forum might be able to discuss this without people being told they weren't allowed to. I was wrong.

Now I'm in the odd situation of being criticised by multiple posters, without any of them responding directly to me. If you want to carry on insulting me for bringing this up, please at least show me the respect of replying to what I've said on the matter.

Now, let us just assume for the sake of argument that there is a widespread culture of doping in football, akin to 80s and 90s cycling. Pushed largely by teams, athletes wanting to follow their dreams must dope simply to keep up. Their doping is not to deprive opponents of what is rightly theirs so much as to level the playing field.

Within this framework, I personally see all the athletes as the victims of doping. I don't see them as bad people in any way, and I'm trying to explain that if Muamba doped within this hypothetical situation, I don't think that makes him a 'bad guy' at all. Some players may not even know that what they're doing is doping at all - they just trust their team doctor.

With this in mind, I don't think that it's an insult to Muamba to raise the possibility that drugs might have been a contributing factor.

In my post that said that, based on some rough calculations, footballers seemed to be 4 times as likely as the general population to succumb to this (that you somehow ignored, despite being previously keen to wave about the 'facts and figures' card), of the 3 examples I gave, 2 were in-game, and 1 was at a pre-season training camp. These are the occasions where one might expect doping to be most used. That might be completely coincidental. This all might be coincidental. The sample size is too small to get a proper idea, and knowledge of the extent of doping in football is pretty scant. It is not outrageous to simply ask 'Might it be non-coincidental?'.

Maybe after asking that question, you conclude that doping probably wasn't a factor. The point of science (you were very keen on it earlier) is that before you declare that 'X is the most likely outcome', you first have to properly ask the question 'Is X the most likely outcome?', which you are saying we cannot.

 

[Caruut]

unclemonty-
Aye, I'm not a fairytale believer to think that the sport is clean, but in this case, as with most others, there is nearly zero tangible evidence. Till there is, these insinuations are just baseless speculation.

Baseless? The base has been outlined. Yes there is no direct evidence, but until an ex-pro says something or we have a Festina or a Balco, direct evidence is unlikely to come out. Must there be a prosecutable case for everything before the idea even crosses our lips (fingers).

When a woman dies, the police must ask, 'Did her husband kill her?'. Once they have an alibi, or evidence to the contrary, it is wrong to raise the possibility. But many women are killed by their husbands, which is why you must ask the question before you dismiss it out of hand.

 

[richtea]

Beginning by considering every possible explanation for something would be an inefficient way to go about police work. But even so, how would an athlete go about providing that evidence to the contrary when no-one has any confidence in the tests as they have been proven to give false negatives so often?

 

[ramjambunath]

Caruut- I'm not talking about the general situation. I'm sure that you read it in the post. A specific case made on innuendo and little hearsay and deciding it be doping wouldn't exactly be called a case with a strong base.

Second, we aren't the police. The fact is, the police can scour out real evidence. what most forummers (myself included, if not foremost) do is just some drivel in comparison.

If this discussion isn't moving forward, I'll step out and let the super gladiators take centre stage.

 

[unclem0nty]

@unclemonty

You come out and say everyone is saying he is a player with immense stamina and join the dots and think it is worthwhile to talk about doping now. He was a player with exceptional stamina when he was 16 and 17 in the Arsenal academy. You think coz he has great stamina you add arms and legs on to it and bring on the issue of doping. I have no problem talking about doping in football when there is a basis for it but there is no basis for it here.

Like i said before i believe the health correspondent on Sky News when he said it was most likely hypertrophic cardiomyopathy which caused the death of Marc-Vivien Foe. I will believe him as he is an expert on health but i wont believe the nonsense with insinuations in a discussion on doping from people here.

I think you've joined too many dots. My point was simply that stamina is an increasing part of modern football - having a "good engine" is becoming more and more important. In this climate, any player whose chief contribution to the team is box-to-box energy might be more likely than most to consider (and indeed be offered or even instructed to take) a pharmocological boost. Muamba was self-evidently born a good footballer and a great athlete, but he's acknowledged that his professional attributes were largely about the latter.

I put plenty of "ifs" in my argument, but you might have missed them. At any rate, it's clearly not "nonsense" to discuss this issue. Google up "hypertrophic cardiomyopathy" + "steroids" (and/or "HGH") is you want to see the clinical suggestions of a link.

Reluctant to sound too emotive here, but how many times does this have to happen before people are prepared to ask questions? It's my personal opinion that Muamba's case is one too many. Too many young cyclists died before the dangers of EPO were fully appreciated. I'd hate to think the same might be happening to young footballers.

 

[Caruut]

Even if there genuinely was some link, don't you think it it was the eagerness to make insinuations before it was known whether he would survive that is an indication that some posters have lost their decency. Go and tell your friends and family that you saw an internet forum that was making innuendo about Muamba taking drugs even before they had restarted his heart, and see if they are impressed or repulsed.

Even if there genuinely is no link, don't you think that the eagerness to make insinuations that clinic posters take joy in death before it was known whether there was a link or not is an indication that some posters have lost their decency. Go and tell your friends and family that you saw an internet forum that was innocently wondering whether drugs might have been involved in these tragic events, and your reaction was to tell them that they aren't decent human beings, and see if they are impressed or repulsed.

It works both ways.

Why do we have to wait, and how long should we be waiting to discuss this? If I thought FM or close friends and family were going to read this, I would never have brought it up. I don't wish to insult or upset people, but when people get insulted on someone else's behalf, when they don't really know them, then there's not a lot I can do. I would have a few choice words about certain politicians that I wouldn't dream of saying to their wife or kids, but would find it hard to care if a supporter of their party got deeply offended on their behalf.

I care deeply about all life, human life especially. I have been a vegetarian since a young age, of my own volition and with no other family members also being so, because I care a lot about life. I would describe myself as a pacifist, more or less. I am not some c*** without principles as you keep trying to say - it is not because I'm heartless that I say this, but because I care.

If Fabrice Muamba or anyone close to him reads what I have said on the subject, know this: I've said it because I don't want anyone to go through this again. If drugs were involved in this case and/or previous cases, then we owe it to those involved to try and ensure that it doesn't happen again. If Fabrice Muamba did not dope at all, then I wholeheatedly apologise. Only he truly knows whether he hasn't, and my apology is only to him.

This is a doping forum. If it so troubles your frail countenances to see doping discussed, why on earth are you here?

 

[Caruut]

@ramjambunath

I agree that there isn't evidence, but I think that because of the severity of the situation, it is worth discussing in a frank, adult manner. The problem with this phenomenon is that there are a tiny number of cases. It's almost impossible to discuss the general relationship between SCD and possible doping without getting into specific cases.

I didn't intend this to be a smear on Muamba. I've outlined my reasons already.

 

[unclem0nty]

I agree the Muamba situation is one too many in football but you then go on and talk about EPO afterwards when there is no evidence to talk about it. I think that sort of talk is a disgrace at the moment. Whats not a disgrace is to talk about the screening of footballers at clubs and is it sufficient enough.
This is the real talking point everywhere else at the moment but not here though.

By the way i have googled up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and it says it is a hereditary condition that is known to increase the risk of death during physical exercise. But i suppose you havent mentioned that in your "ifs".

Too snippy there, sir.

Re EPO, I went to (clearly inadequate) pains to emphasise the conflicting evidence. And there isn't much point Googling "hypertrophic cardiomyopathy" on its own. I suggested adding "steroids" as a search term. If you want a hand: https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&scl...,cf.osb&fp=1f11db8364493ec8&biw=2144&bih=1039

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Fabrice Muamba tweets could land Twitter 'troll' in prison
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/mar/19/fabrice-muamba-twitter-troll-prison?CMP=twt_gu

 

[ramjambunath]

Jebus zam, what a tw@t he is.

Caruut, no worries.

 

[unclem0nty]

Gooner - not trying to offend, but are you sure you've really grasped the issues?

There are several studies suggesting a link between hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and steroid use. Scientific studies. By doctors. I provided a link which delivered them all to your attention.

You might as well insist that there's no link between EPO and congestive heart failure, because when you looked at the Wikipedia page for congestive heart failure, it didn't mention EPO. You might even want to conclude that it's no more harmful than orange juice.

 

[Caruut]

To be honest hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is the only term that i have googled as that is the term that the medical experts are saying which is the likely cause. So they are the medical experts so i will give you a hand and why dont you listen to them.

So, he has to listen to your medical experts, but you won't listen to his?

Re: Zam, at last, a subject we can all agree on. What an idiot.

Back on topic, Bolton and Stoke have always been quite physical, and attracted a seemly irrational hatred from Wenger. Could doping be why that is? That or Wenger is just a tad eccentric.

Does anyone know of any cyclists that have suffered a SCA? Or incidences in other sports?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Can messi do it on a cold wednesday night in stoke?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Update on Muamba.
http://www.bwfc.co.uk/page/General/0,,1004~2673101,00.html

Fabrice Muamba remains in intensive care at The London Chest Hospital, where today he is showing small signs of improvement.

His heart is now beating without the help of medication and he is also moving his arms and his legs.

However, his long-term prognosis will remain unclear for some time. He is still critically ill and will continue to be closely monitored and treated by staff in The London Chest Hospital's intensive care unit.

Thank you. Carry on.

 

[sniper]

Thats good news. Lets hope the good news keeps coming. If there is anymore good news post it in future in the thread in the Cafe. It would be better talking about it there.

please stop playing holier than the pope. We all, including those who inquire about a possible link with doping, hope he recovers quickly.

Sueddeutsche Zeitung on Muamba and, briefly, on the possibility of doping being involved, recalling the doping-related sudden death of Russian icehockeyplayer Tscherepanow in 2008:

In manchen Fällen stand das Herzversagen auch im Zusammenhang mit Doping: Nach dem Tod von Eishockeyspieler Alexej Tscherepanow 2008 etwa fanden die Behörden illegale leistungssteigernde Mittel im Blut des Russen, der an einer chronischen Herzmuskelentzündung litt.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/fu...ebensgefahr-er-braucht-gottes-hilfe-1.1312577

 

[hrotha]

Look at Antonio Puerta who played with Sevilla who died while playing. The autopsy showed it was arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy which is also a heriditary condition.

Actually I seem to remember Puerta's autopsy wasn't made public, and a short Google search hasn't revealed any results either. The synopsis of this book at least says it was never made public.

 

[LugHugger]

@unclemonty

You come out and say everyone is saying he is a player with immense stamina and join the dots and think it is worthwhile to talk about doping now. He was a player with exceptional stamina when he was 16 and 17 in the Arsenal academy. You think coz he has great stamina you add arms and legs on to it and bring on the issue of doping. I have no problem talking about doping in football when there is a basis for it but there is no basis for it here.

Like i said before i believe the health correspondent on Sky News when he said it was most likely hypertrophic cardiomyopathy which caused the death of Marc-Vivien Foe. I will believe him as he is an expert on health but i wont believe the nonsense with insinuations in a discussion on doping from people here.

Sorry to derail this interesting thread but if you think that tv reporters are experts because they report on a subject, then you don't understand the nature of journalism.

 

[sniper]

Look at Antonio Puerta who played with Sevilla who died while playing. The autopsy showed it was arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy which is also a heriditary condition.
.

Rather look at the Russian icehockeyplayer Tscherepanow I just referred to.
He had a heartmuscle disorder. He died with PEDs in his blood.
He might have grown very old with that heartmuscle disorder if he hadn't taken PEDs.

 

[hrotha]

This is my last post on this matter just to clear this up. Here is a link where it said he had this heart condition.

http://powerofthegene.com/joomla/in...rs/arrhythmogenic-right-ventricular-dysplasia

I wasnt sure if it was released either but it says here when you scroll down to Antonio Puerta that his autopsy revealed he had this condition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_footballers_who_died_while_playing

There were early reports about his autopsy results, dating to September 2007. By October 2007, all the info I can find says the results were delayed. The Wikipedia article is unsourced.

The first reports about the autopsy talked about his heart condition. Later reports said the autopsy didn't find anything in his heart and pointed to an embolism. There's no reports about any full results.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Henry Winter ‏ @henrywinter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
#bwfc say Fabrice Muamba ''is now able to breathe independently without a ventilator. He is able to recognise family & respond to questions'

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I will repeat myself for you. It is widely said by medical people on TV today that it is more then likely hypertrophic cardiomyopathy which is a heriditary condition. This is what happenned to Marc Vivien Foe and Miklos Feher when he died playing for Benfica and it has also happenned to people in other sports. Look at Antonio Puerta who played with Sevilla who died while playing. The autopsy showed it was arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy which is also a heriditary condition.

At the same time, even leaving out Puerta because of what hrotha has said about finding sources, then there are quite a few cases of players dying or collapsing due to this condition (assuming we accept in the absence of any evidence to the contrary that hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is the most likely cause of Muamba's collapse).

This is obviously not something which is completely avoidable, but is it something that, like was stated before in the Italian study into sudden cardiac death, can be effectively reduced with screening? Could the condition be diagnosed or at least suspected with better medical screening, thus identifying players at risk and taking steps to reduce this?

I have maintained throughout that as the number of players collapsing is too high, then this should be investigated. Not necessarily a doping investigation, and not necessarily an investigation into Muamba specifically or players who have died in general, but an investigation into the standards of medical coverage across the sport.

Football has enough money to provide the additional medical tests and screening proscribed in that study, and if not, why not? The question can then arise, are the players receiving this medical care, and if not, why not - somebody has blood on their hands as a result. And if they are receiving this medical care that studies have shown massively reduces the risk, then why are players still collapsing? It could be wholly innocent, a matter of luck. But there are also potentially less sanguine reasons that should be investigated only if the investigation reaches this point.

Mambo, of course, knows all this, but the word "investigation" in the Clinic has some specific connotations that set off red alerts in his mind. And those of us who would like to see something done about the number of players who have collapsed and continued to collapse become the bad guys because we have to refer to potential reasons, which in the absence of proper information begets idle and sometimes ghoulish speculation. Mambo is of course the good guy here, because he will not speculate. I'm just interested how those that think "too many people are getting hurt, we must find out why this is and try to reduce it" are the bad guys and lumped in with the (mostly fictitious) "oh my god it must be dope he doped and that's why it happened" group, and those who think "this is terrible. Still, let's keep on keeping on" and then rinse and repeat when the next player collapses are the good guys.