Doping in Soccer/Football

[Marco Pantani]

I haven't seen the game, yesterday, but I doubt, anything has changed.
They follow their programme as usual, i think.

Will be interesting to see how they're doing, when they clash with Milans laboratory the second time. But i think, they're just suffering from a lack of form.

 

[Checkov]

Where are the Johan Cruyffs or Rijkaards of this generation? I mean, all is not down to dope. Do you believe that the Ajax of 1995, the last great Ajax team, were relatively doping better than the current one?

The Dutch competition is simply not lucrative enough to keep all its best players. The Netherlands has several very good players, but they play in foreign countries.

Also note that Frank de Boer, current Ajax coach, was tested positive for nandrolone while playing for Barcelona.

One incident that came to mind was the comment about Ronaldo being injected with illegal hormones at PSV during his teenage years and as a result being frequently injured. Arjen Robben is another player who was at PSV in his formative years and who is very frequently injured at his knee. It's probably just a coincidence, but in any case, I wonder who is actually behind injecting someone like Ronaldo. Is it his manager, the club or the Brazilians?

 

[iejeecee]

Also note that Frank de Boer, current Ajax coach, was tested positive for nandrolone while playing for Barcelona.

Frank de Boer talked about this in a recent interview. In his opinion, whatever happened happened at the Dutch National team. Since Edgar Davids and Jaap Stam also tested positive for the same substance (nadrolone). And all three were playing for different club teams at the time.

I think it's quite possible in football that doctors give stuff to players without their knowledge. We all know football players in general aren't the brightest people in the world, and they probably deal with random Medical people from a very young age. So I doubt they are very suspicious/malicious in general.

I wonder who is actually behind injecting someone like Ronaldo. Is it his manager, the club or the Brazilians?

Maybe it was Cees Rein van den Hoogenband? Who just happens to have a multiple Olympic swimming champion son, called Pieter...

 

[JimmyFingers]

39 years young Ryan Giggs has signed a contract extension at Manchester United.

Van Persie remains uninjured.

For a player formerly in and out of the treatment room like a yo-yo, what drugs might provide the magic cure? hGH? After researching it the recovery aspect of it made me think of football, perhaps coupled with steroid to build strength.

Pure sour grapes on my part of course: I struggle to recognise the player I watched at Arsenal: bigger muscles, much greater physicality in his play, less body fat, greater muscle definition. But most of it he's staying fit, which quite frankly beggars belief. I just at him and wonder if he discovered some drug cocktail at Arsenal so managed to stay fit, then agitated for a move to a club with a more ambivalent attitude to drug use.

Very partisan viewpoint for me I know, but as I said I struggle to recognise the dynamism and strength of the player who was already very skillful at Arsenal but now has a touch of the 'Drogba' about him.

I feel dirty

 

[sniper]

39 years young Ryan Giggs has signed a contract extension at Manchester United.

Van Persie remains uninjured.

For a player formerly in and out of the treatment room like a yo-yo, what drugs might provide the magic cure? hGH? After researching it the recovery aspect of it made me think of football, perhaps coupled with steroid to build strength.

Pure sour grapes on my part of course: I struggle to recognise the player I watched at Arsenal: bigger muscles, much greater physicality in his play, less body fat, greater muscle definition. But most of it he's staying fit, which quite frankly beggars belief. I just at him and wonder if he discovered some drug cocktail at Arsenal so managed to stay fit, then agitated for a move to a club with a more ambivalent attitude to drug use.

Very partisan viewpoint for me I know, but as I said I struggle to recognise the dynamism and strength of the player who was already very skillful at Arsenal but now has a touch of the 'Drogba' about him.

I feel dirty

do you have photographic evidence to back this up? I love the "before-and-after" photo sessions.

anyway, as you alraedy notice, his lack of injuries started at arsenal.
By the way, I don't see any reason to assume arsenal are clean.
Arsenal have been a contender for European football for over a decade now.
Well, their program might be less heavy than Manchester's, sure. You're probably right that on average Arsenal players appear less bulky than say Manunited's players.
But the mere fact that Arsene Wenger is anti-doping doesn't mean much, imo. What influence does Arsene have on the medical team? It's an open question, but I assume he's not in the position to decide whether or not his players are doped.

 

[JimmyFingers]

do you have photographic evidence to back this up? I love the "before-and-after" photo sessions.

anyway, as you alraedy notice, his lack of injuries started at arsenal.
By the way, I don't see any reason to assume arsenal are clean.
Arsenal have been a contender for European football for over a decade now.
Well, their program might be less heavy than Manchester's, sure. You're probably right that on average Arsenal players appear less bulky than say Manunited's players.
But the mere fact that Arsene Wenger is anti-doping doesn't mean much, imo. What influence does Arsene have on the medical team? It's an open question, but I assume he's not in the position to decide whether or not his players are doped.

Photos can be very misleading and falacious, it's more of a simple observation. It's an honest reaction: he looks much bigger and stronger to my eye, and I watched him play for years at Arsenal.

You're right: if he is on the juice he started at Arsenal, but I would argue independently of the club, given Wenger's position (depending on how much store you put by that). Wenger has remarked how he has got players in before with suspicious blood values from other clubs. I'm not saying Arsenal are whiter than white but Man Utd seem to have the fountain of youth stashed somewhere at the club.

Presumably they borrowed it from AC Milan

 

[sniper]

...I'm not saying Arsenal are whiter than white but Man Utd seem to have the fountain of youth stashed somewhere at the club.

Presumably they borrowed it from AC Milan

indeed this age aspect is interesting and perhaps alarming.
Like you I also think AC Milan may have been frontrunners. They extended Paolo Maldini's carreer, and Seedorf's, to name just two. But this youth potion might be spreading more rapidly than we know. We also have, for instance, Puyol (34, Barca) and van Buyten (35, Bayern) playing at the very highest international level and of course some guys at Juve and Inter Milan.
And I wonder how long a guy like Xavi, once a rather fragile midfielder, can continue to play at the highest level.
We'll be seeing more and more oldies on the field, no doubt.
I don't necessarily like it, I must admit.

As for Arsenal, note how Wenger insisted on getting Henry back.

 

[coinneach]

Photos can be very misleading and falacious, it's more of a simple observation. It's an honest reaction: he looks much bigger and stronger to my eye, and I watched him play for years at Arsenal.

You're right: if he is on the juice he started at Arsenal, but I would argue independently of the club, given Wenger's position (depending on how much store you put by that). Wenger has remarked how he has got players in before with suspicious blood values from other clubs. I'm not saying Arsenal are whiter than white but Man Utd seem to have the fountain of youth stashed somewhere at the club.

Presumably they borrowed it from AC Milan

Dear Jimmy: isn't it interesting how ones faith & loyalty affect how one interpenetrates evidence?

Your comments betray a bias you might find hard to accept from some colonials having a go at Sky, I fear.

Man U are not especially good with injuries: Hargreaves, Vidich etc, very poor records. Giggs has done well, but others burnt themselves out much earlier

I suspect its more down to luck and the fact that Man U don't need him every week, unlike, in latter days, Arsenal.

Mind you, if you compare Juventus with Celtic, it really is men against boys.

In rugby, you get the pack weights, and you can often see who's going to win with that......I suspect IF such data was available in football, it'd quite often be revealing.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

United's former conditioning coach Mike Clegg on Ronaldo: "He pushed his body and mind as far as he could go. He'd come to work to WORK."

 

[del1962]

Stanley Matthews played top flight football over 50, so Gigs by comparison is a spring chicken

 

[Cyivel]

Old football was rubbish.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Dear Jimmy: isn't it interesting how ones faith & loyalty affect how one interpenetrates evidence?

Your comments betray a bias you might find hard to accept from some colonials having a go at Sky, I fear.

Pure sour grapes on my part of course

I am well aware of my own hyprocrisy, hence the 'I feel dirty' comment. And the partisan nature of this board is something I have alluded to frequently. The truth is you see the doper and the cheat in the teams/sportsmen you don't like, and refuse to see the same in your own side. The most successful sides draw the most vitriol and criticism, so I suppose for Man Utd here we read Sky.

But seriously, my draw dropped when I watched Van Persie play for United. Physically he looks very different.

 

[sniper]

...
But seriously, my draw dropped when I watched Van Persie play for United. Physically he looks very different.

Giggs today ran twice the distance van Persie did.

 

[The Hitch]

The truth is you see the doper and the cheat in the teams/sportsmen you don't like, and refuse to see the same in your own side.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Cyivel]

I know it's been brought up ITT about how important PED's would be in football, imo Bale's recent performances have shown how important they could be, his power, pace and stamina are such an important part of his game that it makes it obvious how useful they could be.

I'm not saying he is on anything as there is no evidence (and I'm a Spurs fan) but just an observation, albeit not necessarily a very interesting one.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Speak for yourself.

Dearest Hitch, there's no way I would dare try to speak for you

 

[The Hitch]

Dearest Hitch, there's no way I would dare try to speak for you

Its just a figure of speech. Point is not everyone believes things just because they want them to be true.

 

[ChrisRider]

I dont think soccer players would need drugs as much to perform, as alot of the best players in soccer are SKILL based.

And even if some of them were on it, Messi will still run around them, hehe

 

[JimmyFingers]

Ah yes, because a skill-based sportsman has no need of strength, speed, endurance and recovery

 

[del1962]

Ah yes, because a skill-based sportsman has no need of strength, speed, endurance and recovery

The temptation to dope in football must be less though than in a pre-dominantly endurance or strenght sport, since your skills will get you a long way though, this does not mean no doping in football, just less than in predominantley endurance/ power based sports.

There are of course question marks over some footballer such as Rio Ferdinand though, because he missed those tests

 

[Eshnar]

OM won the Champions League '93 on doping so it can bring you pretty up in football too.

 

[del1962]

OM won the Champions League '93 on doping so it can bring you pretty up in football too.

I used to watch Waddle at Newcastle, exceptionally skilled player who was always going to good enough to play for ENgland, I remember his passing ability stood out massively as did his dribbling, never good at pelanties though.

Anyway here is what he said about his time at Marseille

"Players were injected all the time at Marseille," Waddle told the Sun newspaper on Thursday.

The winger spent three years at Marseille, winning the 1992 European Cup and league titles in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

"The club doctor said the injections would help our recovery after games. I had a couple of injections but they didn't make any difference," said Waddle.

While Marseille players were regularly tested by French sports ministry officials, none were ever accused of illegal doping, Waddle added.

"I don't know what it was but no one ever failed drugs tests and nothing illegal showed up."

 

[Eshnar]

Anyway here is what he said about his time at Marseille

reminds me of other situations.
especially this

"I don't know what it was but no one ever failed drugs tests and nothing illegal showed up."

 

[pascoa341]

I dont think soccer players would need drugs as much to perform, as alot of the best players in soccer are SKILL based.

And even if some of them were on it, Messi will still run around them, hehe

Although I am not certain how you would define doping in this case, Messi was on growth hormones for a pretty long time during his teens. It is said that without it he would not have grown taller than 1.40m.

I do wonder what football would be like if this became common practice as football has increasingly become a physical sport.

 

[iejeecee]

Ah yes, because a skill-based sportsman has no need of strength, speed, endurance and recovery

Wayne Rooney seems to think so. Alex Ferguson may disagree though