Doping in XC skiing

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Re:

python said:
c'mon, discgear, let me quote the newest norge apologists here directly. he said (in a response to bullsfan ) that the norge echo chamber is no more...'It's changed now', he said
:)
Felice Gimondi said:
It has been a very "interesting" development in Norway concerning attitudes towards our athletes positive doping tests and our belief in their anti-doping attitudes in general.
Many interesting posts today Felice.
Do you have any insight in who was on FIS doping panel when they sentenced Kowalczyk to a two year ban, and who was on the very same panel when they did free Johnsrud Sundby this summer?
 
Jan 3, 2016
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Re:

Norwegians are currently entrenched into basically two camps and there is no indication that the Sundby or the Johaug case will change the opinion that Norwegians do not cheat and that the two cases are just a result of accidents, unclear rules, trusting doctors etc. etc. and consequently the athletes have no guilt. There have even been articles in Norwegian media mentioning that we now have to revise our understanding of foreign athletes obscure explanations/excuses behind their positive doping tests saying that there might be some truth to their explanations after all.
The positive to take form this is that there are two camps. There are Norwegians who really are disgusted by the whole spectacle and are turning off their TVs - all credit to them. In the other camp are those who are describing the suspension of Johaug as a 'witch hunt', and don't see how she could possibly have been caught for doping because it was such a tiny amount (!)The cognitive dissonance the doping cases have provoked is leading to, as Felice describes, a need to find fault anywhere else but with the athletes in question. XC has been carefully cultivated in Norway as the national sport, a part of Norway's folkesjel (peoples soul). XC is an important part of Norway's self-image, or at least for some Norwegians it is. It's too big to fail. But siege mentalities, like real sieges, do eventually break.
 
Re: Re:

Blaaswix said:
Norwegians are currently entrenched into basically two camps and there is no indication that the Sundby or the Johaug case will change the opinion that Norwegians do not cheat and that the two cases are just a result of accidents, unclear rules, trusting doctors etc. etc. and consequently the athletes have no guilt. There have even been articles in Norwegian media mentioning that we now have to revise our understanding of foreign athletes obscure explanations/excuses behind their positive doping tests saying that there might be some truth to their explanations after all.
The positive to take form this is that there are two camps. There are Norwegians who really are disgusted by the whole spectacle and are turning off their TVs - all credit to them. In the other camp are those who are describing the suspension of Johaug as a 'witch hunt', and don't see how she could possibly have been caught for doping because it was such a tiny amount (!)The cognitive dissonance the doping cases have provoked is leading to, as Felice describes, a need to find fault anywhere else but with the athletes in question. XC has been carefully cultivated in Norway as the national sport, a part of Norway's folkesjel (peoples soul). XC is an important part of Norway's self-image, or at least for some Norwegians it is. It's too big to fail. But siege mentalities, like real sieges, do eventually break.

At least it's not as clueless as some of the Americans. "Oh, Therese is so nice, she is so friendly, she would never dope!!"
 
Jan 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

At least it's not as clueless as some of the Americans. "Oh, Therese is so nice, she is so friendly, she would never dope!!"
I recall a poster on this forum who used to say that Norwegians would never dope because of the opprobium they would be met with if caught, i.e. they would have too much to lose. Well, as it turns out, apparently not that much. And what's more, as long as you're *just* inside the rules, why change a winning formula?
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Cloxxki said:
Your explanation was about as detailed as "10-15kg doesn't matter up to 3 minutes".
If anyone wants to give it a better try, be my guest.
It was about 250+ words. If you're new to physiology i may understand how that was your take home message. At least its correct!
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Re: Re:

Blaaswix said:
At least it's not as clueless as some of the Americans. "Oh, Therese is so nice, she is so friendly, she would never dope!!"
I recall a poster on this forum who used to say that Norwegians would never dope because of the opprobium they would be met with if caught, i.e. they would have too much to lose. Well, as it turns out, apparently not that much. And what's more, as long as you're *just* inside the rules, why change a winning formula?
this is a spot on observation regarding the sundby case. thankfully, we have a relatively detailed, factual cas record of how he abused the wada system not even bothering to get a tue. it was an in-your-face grey-area abusive practice that a norge doctor didn't even consider worth consulting with wada (that is, was the nebulizer 9x doze consistent with the 1600/24h limit etc). as i said several times, it was likely this arrogance - not seeking the wada consultation/interpretation - that lead to the cas appeal.

but with the johaug case it is still theoretically 'an accident'. thus the spinning opportunity.

it's the case unfortunately simply b/c we have no, none, nada PUBLIC details. no clostebol concentration, no official time line, no disclosed testimonies, no copies of the receipts...

like the sundby handlers tried, so far, the johaug case is totally secret.

that's what makes me skeptical of her official story - the lack of transparency. and when i factor in her incredible winning margins all season long (up to 5% !!!!????), the margins we clearly see no woman is capable of achieving THIS season, even marit, i must remain open to a deliberate case of an anabolic steroid use.

that this is an unthinkable thing in norway i cant get. any rational human would have to question it particularly lacking any evidence to the contrary :sad:
 
Apr 3, 2016
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Libertine Seguros said:
But the point is more that XC wasn't always a Norway first and foremost thing. In fairly recent memory there were far more nations competing in the upper echelons of competition, but now there's a veritable procession of Norwegians. It's true that biathlon is more popular in several countries (most notably Germany of course) but that doesn't explain why XC hæmorrhages talent to it. Put simply, because there are more variables in biathlon, more people feel they can compete and get a good result, so even in countries other than those like Germany with a big biathlon tradition, a prospective XC skier who doesn't fancy scrapping around for minor placements can pick up a rifle and if they take to it, have more chance of picking up top 10s, top 5s, podiums or wins than they would in XC. And then, for fans, the fact that biathlon has that additional variable that means there's the potential for the race situation to dramatically change every few minutes means that there's fewer races where the pattern is established in the first 5 minutes and then stays that way all the way to the end, as happened far too often with either tepidly-raced mass start men's events where everybody stays as a pack until a sprint finish, or women's distance events where Johaug skis off with a couple of km gone and nobody sees her again.

It's become chicken-and-egg. The loss of talents to biathlon has increased the Norway-heavy nature of XC results sheets and seen several countries divert budgets away from XC and towards biathlon, but the subsequent inability of those teams to compete financially with the Norwegian team only perpetuates the situation of Norwegian dominance. Of course it happens, often with start number races or when top teams are resting their stars ahead of a major championships or after the Tour de Ski or what have you, but the number of unexpected outsider winners and podiums is much higher in biathlon than in XC as well, giving further incentives for athletes who are not at the very top to move across. When the people being lost from XC aren't just prospects and also-rans but pretty established World Cup names, there's a clear problem. For example, Denise Herrmann has worn the sprint World Cup leaders' bib and been top 10 in the overall World Cup, made podiums of World Cup events and is in peak years - and yet to her it's more appealing to compete in biathlon on the IBU Cup (not even at World Cup level!) than to compete in XC and fight over minor placements. This isn't a World Cup also-ran trying their luck as a biathlete; this isn't a competitor from a small biathlon nation where they've got a fairly straightforward ticket to the World Cup. This is legitimately the best XC skier a major Nordic sports country has, electing to give up the sport to compete in second division biathlon. Worse, Victoria Carl, perhaps the only really top notch prospect the Germans have in XC, has already made noises about converting to biathlon.

That's a serious problem that XC needs to figure out how to address in order to protect the sport's appeal and attract competitors and investment beyond the borders of Norway and to a lesser extent Finland. It's a glorious and historic sport and it shouldn't have been allowed to get into the dire straits it finds itself in. It's all well and good to say "XC is more popular in Norway and biathlon is more popular in the rest of Europe", but the important question is, why is that?
So we basically agree on my premise for success if I read you correctly. Its interesting that you feel as if Norway haven't dominated throughout, this link shows top three in the WC the past 40-50 years. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdenscupen_i_langrenn
Norway, Sweden and Finland with a period of Germany in the '00 for the men. For women, its basically the same, except for a rather ugly period in the 90's with Larisa Lazutina, Jelena Wälbe and Manuela Di Centa (imo the biggest cheat to ever have gotten away in xc)
Perhaps you mean that the field was deeper in terms of nations and athletes with chance of winning? The 90's were pretty wild doping-wise, so even small nations with only a handfull of skiiers could sometimes podium. Today's field is more representative of how big (or small) xc skiing is in each country imo.

Really agreeing with you regarding biathlon, I think its a combination of the factors you describe that makes it so popular. Maybe there should be rules about budget and number skii's/poles/waxers/team etc to level it somewhat. But that would kill a lot of innovation and perhaps also make it stagnant.

I would like to see real hills, maybe 5-10k long with gradient of about 5-10% like cycling, and the rest could unfold on a smaller crowd-pleasing circuit like we have today. I think a couple of those races would really allow small, endurance skiiers to shine, and really allow people to actually brake away from the pack. Also, the sprints should be shorter by about half.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Promising news in Norway today with Linda Helleland cutting budgets 2017 for administration in NIF and at the same time demanding that spending is made public also for all future and historic records. This will most likely apply for NSF as well as they are part of NIF. It's going to be some interesting months and good stuff for journalists to investigate.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!
 
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
 
Jul 15, 2012
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Re: Re:

Oude Geuze said:
So we basically agree on my premise for success if I read you correctly. Its interesting that you feel as if Norway haven't dominated throughout, this link shows top three in the WC the past 40-50 years. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdenscupen_i_langrenn
Norway, Sweden and Finland with a period of Germany in the '00 for the men. For women, its basically the same, except for a rather ugly period in the 90's with Larisa Lazutina, Jelena Wälbe and Manuela Di Centa (imo the biggest cheat to ever have gotten away in xc)
Perhaps you mean that the field was deeper in terms of nations and athletes with chance of winning? The 90's were pretty wild doping-wise, so even small nations with only a handfull of skiiers could sometimes podium. Today's field is more representative of how big (or small) xc skiing is in each country imo.

snip...
The 90's was the 'full blown EPO era', let us never forget.

Who was 'the greatest of all time' during that dark period?
Who was winning all championship medals (blood bags helps here) and every overall World Cup (EPO helps here) between the onset of EPO and the first EPO test?




http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1087121#p1087121

EVERY other non-norwegian athlete is a proven doper, except Smirnov (but he has a 19+ HB value on record...)

Björn had better wax?
 
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
Just because you supercharge for the Olympics does not mean you are clean in the other races. You think Lance was clean in the 2009 Tour?

They could easily dope all year in smaller doses and at the Olympics they could bring out the sledgehammer and sweep the podium....hmm, that actually sounds familiar.
 
Walkman said:
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
Just because you supercharge for the Olympics does not mean you are clean in the other races. You think Lance was clean in the 2009 Tour?

They could easily dope all year in smaller doses and at the Olympics they could bring out the sledgehammer and sweep the podium....hmm, that actually sounds familiar.

Yes. The Swedes in 2010-2015, particularly Johan Olsson. Does nothing the whole year then shows up at the big events and wins races, beating all those doped Russians.
 
BullsFan22 said:
Walkman said:
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
Just because you supercharge for the Olympics does not mean you are clean in the other races. You think Lance was clean in the 2009 Tour?

They could easily dope all year in smaller doses and at the Olympics they could bring out the sledgehammer and sweep the podium....hmm, that actually sounds familiar.

Yes. The Swedes in 2010-2015, particularly Johan Olsson. Does nothing the whole year then shows up at the big events and wins races, beating all those doped Russians.
Don't fall for the old fallacy that whenever someone else than Norway winns it must be something wrong with the alternate winners. I agree that Norway haven't been able to dominate in the championships 2010-15 as they've been doing in the tours. There's numerous explanations to that. The evil argument: maybe the testing is better in championships and therefore deterrent? The nice argument: maybe due to the competetive situation in the team they have to peak early in the season?

In the three World Championships and two Olympics between 2010-2015 Norway won 79 medals - 37 golds, 19 silver and 23 bronze medals. Sweden won 40 medals - 9 golds, 19 silver and 12 bronze medals.

In the 90s when blood doping was out of control, peaks in championships was highly suspect. In the micro-dosing asthmatic era, not so much. But yes, Olsson and the whole Swedish team should also be scrutinized.
 
BullsFan22 said:
Walkman said:
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
Just because you supercharge for the Olympics does not mean you are clean in the other races. You think Lance was clean in the 2009 Tour?

They could easily dope all year in smaller doses and at the Olympics they could bring out the sledgehammer and sweep the podium....hmm, that actually sounds familiar.

Yes. The Swedes in 2010-2015, particularly Johan Olsson. Does nothing the whole year then shows up at the big events and wins races, beating all those doped Russians.
Care to elaborate on this?

And as for Olsson, he is always fast when he is racing. Just look at his results. He may not race much, but when he does, he is fast. You think he is juicing for the races in Bruksvallarna too?
 
Didn't you just say, just because the Russians weren't caught outside the Olympics, doesn't mean they aren't doping outside the Olympics? Well, same goes for Olsson.

And as I wrote in the longer comment, the Russians didn't just show up to surprising medals. All three of those guys had great results prior to Sochi. Legkov won the week before Sochi, in the Toblach 15km classic. He was third in Lahti a week after Sochi, third in the Holmenkollen 50k (won by Richardsson btw) and finished third in the Falun mini-tour to end the season.

It's not like these guys popped out of nowhere (Johannes Duerr) and completely turned the world upside down.

Nobody said about them not being possibly doped, but the suggestion(s) that say it was a complete surprise is ridiculous. Oh, and Cologna busted his ski just before the final long climb so he wasn't there, Northug wasn't in 100% shape and Hellner was apparently sick and didn't race.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Oude Geuze said:
For women, its basically the same, except for a rather ugly period in the 90's with Larisa Lazutina, Jelena Wälbe and Manuela Di Centa (imo the biggest cheat to ever have gotten away in xc)
:razz: So when someone (possibly doper) beats Norwegians (possibly dopers), it's ugly, other way round it's nice I suppose.

Aren't you Norwegian? Go on, you are painting nice picture yourself.

P.S. I don't think your actions are helping Norwegians so far. More so the other way round.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Giorgio Di Centa and Pietro Piller Cottrer were always very suspicious to me. Nowhere, or almost nowhere to by seen all season long, suddenly exceling on big action. "Robbed" bauer several medals, I was sad because of Bauer; here won't be another great skier who can win medals maybe for decades, unlike other countries.

P.S. doping in Italy is not secret, so in that respect it's incomparable to Norway.
 
Re: Re:

Nicko. said:
Oude Geuze said:
So we basically agree on my premise for success if I read you correctly. Its interesting that you feel as if Norway haven't dominated throughout, this link shows top three in the WC the past 40-50 years. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdenscupen_i_langrenn
Norway, Sweden and Finland with a period of Germany in the '00 for the men. For women, its basically the same, except for a rather ugly period in the 90's with Larisa Lazutina, Jelena Wälbe and Manuela Di Centa (imo the biggest cheat to ever have gotten away in xc)
Perhaps you mean that the field was deeper in terms of nations and athletes with chance of winning? The 90's were pretty wild doping-wise, so even small nations with only a handfull of skiiers could sometimes podium. Today's field is more representative of how big (or small) xc skiing is in each country imo.

snip...
The 90's was the 'full blown EPO era', let us never forget.

Who was 'the greatest of all time' during that dark period?
Who was winning all championship medals (blood bags helps here) and every overall World Cup (EPO helps here) between the onset of EPO and the first EPO test?




http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1087121#p1087121

EVERY other non-norwegian athlete is a proven doper, except Smirnov (but he has a 19+ HB value on record...)

Björn had better wax?
Norwegian state sponsored doping. Can it be highlighted any more clearly?
 
BullsFan22 said:
Discgear said:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/09/more-than-1000-russian-athletes-benefitted-from-state-sponsored-doping
A report by the respected Canadian law professor Richard McLaren on behalf of the World Anti-Doping Agency also found evidence that more than 1,000 Russians athletes across more than 30 sports – including football – were involved in or benefited from state-sponsored doping between 2011 and 2015.
A big question surfaces:
Did the athletes know what kind of medications they were given or did they just trust the team doctors?

I guess since the McLaren report states it’s all about state-sponsored doping, it more than indicates the team doctors were heavily involved.

So in the light of recent Johnsrud Sundby and Johaug cases, I guess the Norwegians – read Antidoping Norge, Norges idrettsforbund and Norwegian Ski Federation will argue that:

*The Russian athletes shouldn’t be punished or at least be given generous clemency since they did rely on their team and team doctors.
*The athletes didn’t understand that the medication was questionable even if it was marked doping, or if the doses were extreme. I mean, the very experienced team doctor told them to inhale, swallow, digest or whatever and also he/she took the blame.
*They will also argue that the Russian sports federations should compensate the athletes if they due to punishment by WADA looses prize money.
*If they - despite all those very sensible arguments - are punished by the WADA code, which states it’s up to the athlete and not the team-doctor to check if the medication is legal, the Russians should do a class action against WADA together with Johaug and NSF.
* If Russian athletes unfairly get suspended, their sports federation should provide a team with first class trainers, psychologists and medics with a close connection to the sports federation in question.

I do expect that arguments and articles like this will evolve in Norwegian sports and media the upcoming days. All the profound arguments by contributors in this very forum, like ToreBear, Dukoff and Oude Geuze have convinced me. Heck, I'm open minded and can switch sides.
Cheers!

Well, the campaign to ban Russians is purely political, nothing to do with 'fair play.' I very much doubt professional sports as a whole really care how much doping goes on and how it happens, as long as there is a ton of money to be made.

I haven't read the first or second McLaren report, but it's amusing that those athletes that spent the majority of their year, not just winter, in Europe, being regularly tested in and out of competition, are also, apparently involved. And only the samples from Sochi were tampered with? What about when Vylegzhanin won the skiathlon in Falun 2015, who tampered with his samples in Sweden? Or when Legkov won the Tour de Ski, the Holmenkollen 50 and almost won the overall WC (won the distance cup though) in 2013? Did anyone tamper with his tests after those titles? Or did the Russians only dope in Sochi? I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary from the Russians in Sochi. The men that medaled in the 50km were around for years, each having WC wins, world championship medals, TDS success, and significantly, at least Legkov and Chernousov, had been coached by foreigners since 2010.

And how will they provide proof of this happening or not happening? I am just curious. Is it from Rodchenkov? Are there others?
"I haven't read anything, but I have my mind made up. La-la-la."
 
Nov 15, 2015
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Walkman said:
Robert5091 said:
... and not one single Swede amongst them.
This is to be expected. The data show that the Swedes were probably clean during the 80's and 90's.
What data is that? The blood data from Lahti 1997 when the swedish men had higher Hb values than the norwegian men? With Håland at 17.5 and Forsberg at 16.5? Or the article that supposedly reveals peak and median Hb values for swedish skiers from 1993-2001, yet leaves out Håland's and Jonsson's 17.X values and thus cannot be trusted? The same article that claimed norwegian values from the same time period were virtually identical to the swedish ones?

Sweden were the top nation (men) in the 80's when finns, italians and russians were blood doped at the worlds and olympics. In particular the 1987-1991 period was amazing for swedish XC skiing.

Torgny Mogren won a gold medal in dominant fashion in 1993. That's definitely post EPO.

1 MOGREN Torgny SWE 2:03:36.8
2 BALLAND Herve FRA +54.1
3 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:33.5

Ordina managed to medal at what is quite possibly the dirtiest event in XC skiing history, the 1995 worlds in Thunder Bay.

1 VAELBE Elena RUS 1:16:27.3
2 DI CENTA Manuela ITA +13.2
3 ORDINA Antonina SWE +31.3
4 DANILOVA Olga RUS +39.3
5 LAZUTINA Larissa RUS +48.4
6 GAVRIILJUK Nina RUS +1:33.9
7 NILSEN Elin NOR +2:08.3

As did the relay team, beating the clean italian and finnish women.

1 RUSSIA
2 NORWAY
3 SWEDEN
4 ITALY
5 GERMANY
6 FINLAND

Three guys in the top 8 at the same worlds.

1 FAUNER Silvio ITA 1:56:36.0
2 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR +1:12.5
3 SMIRNOV Vladimir KAZ +1:34.7
4 VANZETTA Giorgio ITA +2:15.6
5 FORSBERG Henrik[ SWE +2:38.2
6 GUTIERREZ Juan J. ESP +2:59.0
7 MOGREN Torgny SWE +3:07.7
8 BERGSTROEM Anders SWE +3:21.0

Jonsson won olympic silver in Nagano (1998).

1 DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 2:05:08.2
2 JONSSON Niklas SWE +8.1
3 HOFFMANN Christian AUT +53.6

And followed it up with a 4th place in Ramsau (1999).

1 MYLLYLAE Mika FIN
2 VEERPALU Andrus EST +31.8
3 BOTVINOV Michail AUT +1:43.6
4 JONSSON Niklas SWE +2:26.9

Median Hb peaked in 1997-1999. Sweden did pretty well in the distance world cup in -99.

BOTVINOV Mikhail AUT 413
DAEHLIE Bjoern NOR 360
MYLLYLAE Mika FIN 312
BERGSTROEM Anders SWE 261
PROKOUROROV Alexei RUS 220
FREDRIKSSON Mathias SWE 176
VALBUSA Fulvio ITA 157
ELOFSSON Per SWE 141
JONSSON Niklas SWE 129
 
Apr 22, 2012
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John de Savage said:
Walkman said:
Robert5091 said:
... and not one single Swede amongst them.
This is to be expected. The data show that the Swedes were probably clean during the 80's and 90's.
What data is that?
You are right, it's more correct to say that Swedes were significantly cleaner, than, say, Norwegians (who stand out as clearly most succesful at that period). Data support that pretty clear.
 
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