Doping in XC skiing

[Rider]

Ups, my mistake. Counted Ruhpolding, but it was mixed relay.

 

[BullsFan22]

There's no doubt in my mind there was more than one athlete that doped in Vancouver in either xc or biathlon. At the absolute least there were plenty of highly suspicious results, and not just from the 'usual suspects.'

 

[python]

tomorrow will expire a deadline established by the cas in may as to doping charges against legkov and 5 of his compatriots...

perhaps due in part to that deadline pressure, today the ioc oswald commission is hearing the cases in switzerland. the cas verdict was that lacking new evidence, the athletes should be allowed to compete as of tomorrow.

will there be any new evidence and charges ?

very hard to tell unless one knew all the private findings of the oswald commission. the ioc already said the hearing will be closed. attempting to do the next best thing - that is, establishing an educated guess - i read whatever official was let out, including the cas ruling. the press releases and the lawyer (wieschemann ) statements.

my sense is that some of the six will be exonerated, some will be leveled with new charges.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

tomorrow will expire a deadline established by the cas in may as to doping charges against legkov and 5 of his compatriots...

perhaps due in part to that deadline pressure, today the ioc oswald commission is hearing the cases in switzerland. the cas verdict was that lacking new evidence, the athletes should be allowed to compete as of tomorrow.

will there be any new evidence and charges ?

very hard to tell unless one knew all the private findings of the oswald commission. the ioc already said the hearing will be closed. attempting to do the next best thing - that is, establishing an educated guess - i read whatever official was let out, including the cas ruling. the press releases and the lawyer (wieschemann ) statements.

my sense is that some of the six will be exonerated, some will be leveled with new charges.

https://www.dailyskier.com/2017/10/27/skiers-lawyer-investigation-concludes-there-was-no-probe-tampering/

 

[BullsFan22]

Well, I am now reading some Russian news, and....in my honest opinion it doesn't look good for the skiers. In fact, Oswald is calling for all results from Sochi to be annulled and the Russians be banned from the Olympics. It's carbon copy stuff from Rio, but I think this time around the political machine that's being driven by the US will not be slowing down. My guess is that the results will be annulled and that those not implicated will get to race, but likely under a 'neutral' flag.

The results of the 'investigation' will be published and announced tomorrow, while the final decision on whether ski federation will be allowed to compete, at all, this season will be made next week, if I understood Vaelbe's comments.

Let's be honest, the chances were always against them. Perhaps under different political climates, none of this would have occurred, or at least not to this degree. My belief was that this was purely political on the part of a certain number of countries that felt that simple economic/political sanctions were not enough, so they stepped inside the sports arena to rub their noses. Those beliefs haven't changed. I also think there is definitely a significant amount of hypocrisy and double standards out there in the sporting world in regards to doping.

 

[python]

https://www.vg.no/sport/langrenn/langrenn/legkov-utestengt-paa-livstid-og-fratatt-ol-gull-russerne-anker/a/24177115/

legkov and belov dq-ed for life, lost the olympic medals etc. the ioc is still in judgement for the other 4.

 

[Barkintheeye]

https://youtu.be/fredVDoCUAU

Makes you wonder about Sundby...

 

[Oude Geuze]

Damn, its just like the documentary Icarus, so good to see the Russians dq'ed. I loved Legkov and Belov as skiers, but the Sochi 50k was just a farce. Anyone following xc knew what was up, trippel Russia demolishing Sundby was already proof of doping in my eyes. Russia and China really need to stop the state sponsored doping stuff, why is it so important for ex-communists to excel at sports? Hope Ustiugov stays clear though, definitely my favorite last season.
Btw, why did the southern europeans stop doping? I kind of miss seing old italians winning the 50k

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

https://youtu.be/fredVDoCUAU

Makes you wonder about Sundby...

There's no doubt Sundby was doped then. He was caught, but got a slap on the wrist, if we are to be honest. The Russians weren't busted for failing tests, but because a defector who has had an address in the US since 2011 and spent time in a psychiatric ward wasn't pleased with his job and he and his cronies manipulated tests. How the athletes can be guilty of this I have no idea. Not just Russian athletes, but anyone. An athlete is not allowed to go beyond the testing room. Once he/she gives the doping test and give the signature, they are out of there. Security would be on them like wildfire if they took their own samples and walked away.

Sundby and at the other suspicious Norwegians getting medals/upgrades is a joke beyond belief. At least Sundby, Northug, Roenning and Jespersen were quite diplomatic in their interviews after hearing the news. Not like the self-righteous Americans.

Sorry, I am venting a bit!

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Damn, its just like the documentary Icarus, so good to see the Russians dq'ed. I loved Legkov and Belov as skiers, but the Sochi 50k was just a farce. Anyone following xc knew what was up, trippel Russia demolishing Sundby was already proof of doping in my eyes. Russia and China really need to stop the state sponsored doping stuff, why is it so important for ex-communists to excel at sports? Hope Ustiugov stays clear though, definitely my favorite last season.
Btw, why did the southern europeans stop doping? I kind of miss seing old italians winning the 50k

I didn't see anything unusual in the 50km, to be honest. It's not like any of those three guys came out of nowhere, it's not exactly Johannes Duerr crushing everyone for one or two races. All three of those guys had already won world cup races, world championship medals and in Legkov and Chernousov's cases, they excelled at the U23 level. Legkov was beating Sundby more often than not as juniors and U23's, and Chernousov was battling the likes of Cologna and Northug at the same age. Vylegzhanin had more steady progress, but he got top 10 results as a 22 year old. He was 31 in Sochi. He won a 15km mass start race at a world cup in Poland just weeks before the Olympics. Finished 2nd in the opening mini tour (behind Sundby and just ahead of Legkov), and the Russians won the Lillehammer relay in December that season, beating the Norwegian teams that went 2,3,4, if my memory is right. First world championship medal in 2009 at the age of 26, two more in 2011, another in 2013, and his first individual gold medal at major championship in Falun 2015 in the skiathlon, and finished 4th in the 50km and 4th in the relay. Did the Russians exchange bottles or containers those year as well?

Legkov won U23's in 2006, went to his first olympics that year at 22, finished 2nd in the first tour de ski in 2007 (behind Angerer), finished 2nd overall in the WC that season (also behind Angerer). 2nd in that year's world's relay, 5th in the 15km, 6th in the 30km skiathlon. 2009 world's-4th in the skiathlon, 2010 olympics-4th in the skiathlon...2011 was sick for much of the year, though he won the mini tour in Kuusamo, 2012, fastest climb time up the Alpe Cermis, and another win in the 5km in Toblach, 5th overall in tour, 5th in the overall world cup, 3rd in the distance standings...2013-wins the tour de ski, wins the Holmenkollen 50km, wins the 10km in Kuusamo, relay bronze at worlds, 4th in the 50km at worlds, 6th in the skiathlon, 2nd in the overall world cup (behind Northug), wins the overall distance cup...2014-3rd in the opening tour (as mentioned above, behind Sundby and Vylegzhanin), wins the relay in Lillehammer, 5th overall in the tour de ski, wins the toblach 15km exactly a week before Sochi, 10th in the skiathlon in Sochi (after Di Centa broke his pole), obviously 2nd in relay and won the 50km. After the Olympics he had a run of four 3rd place finishes, including the overall tour in Falun to finish the season, and the 50km classic at holmenkollen, after he, Richardsson and Sundby had a massive battle. Finished 2nd in the overall world cup and 2nd in the distance world cup, all behind Sundby.

Sorry for the stats, just trying to make a point.

I don't see why it was such a shock to see them getting on the podium. Of course it doesn't happen often at the Olympics or World Champs that one nation sweeps the podium, but I don't see it as a 'farce.' Neither does Legkov's performance alone. The gap between him and 26th place was smaller than Bjoergen and the 4th place finisher in the women's race, oh and the Norwegian women swept that race....Any doping going on in that race?

 

[Oude Geuze]

Women’s xc is boring because the field is weak, there are way to few athletes and almost no real talent except for the Norwegians. After 2k in any race, the bunch is shattered, even the 30k. The only reason I sometimes watch is to see Bjorgen, she’s an athlete. It’s been like this for years and simply represent how marginal the sport is outside Norway. Biathlon of course is completely different and more competitive.

Regarding the Russian 50k sweep in Sochi I would say all of them were potential podium placers or even winners, but not all of them at once. They also didn’t just outsprint Sundby for the win, they left him on the incline. All three of them. It’s never happened. Maybe Legkov on a super day with MJS a bit off top form. I would say it looked farcical. The women’s 30k looked like business as usual.

I’m actually looking forward to this season though, niskanen and ustiugov has brought the hype back into the incredibly dull MJS-era of skiing.

 

[meat puppet]

Top Finnish women for instance score around 70ml/kg/min in vo2max tests while close to top form. Would not call that "lacking talent" in absolute or relative terms. Of course other factors such as brute force have become more important in xc recently, but those figures are still quite excellent.

And of course the norwegians know how to prepare. Among others.

 

[BullsFan22]

And interesting that they felt the need to bust the Russians now, as opposed to years ago. Since 2010, a good chunk of the top Russians train with foreign coaches outside of Russia, where they are supposed to get 'more' tested. Legkov, Chernousov, Belov and Ustiugov have had great success, greatER success training with foreign coaches outside of their country than they had with other coaches inside of Russia. And what about their doping samples from other races that year? What about the race Legkov won in Toblach, just before Sochi, as I mentioned in the previous comment? Or the other top 3 results he had that season...all the podium finishers MUST be tested after every world cup, world championship and Olympic race, so he must have been tested. Those races were in Finland, twice in Norway, Italy, three races in Sweden....

 

[Oude Geuze]

Yes they have all been tested, but we all know they are easy to beat. The off season is where the magic happens regarding steroids and other fat soluble drugs. In season it’s all about maintaining that steady high hemoglobin that you built during “enhanced” altitude camp with micro dosing or infusions or stuff we don’t know about.

Vo2 max at about 70 is really good in cycling, but not for xc. In cycling you are using legs only, in xc it’s full body which enables a lot more oxygen to be burned. The athletes frequently test in the high 80’s up to 90++. Also, xc is a more vo2 heavy sport with 5min climbs and rest.

In Norway, the skiers are the top athletes in the country, it’s where all the money and fame is. Norwegian skier Kristin Stormer Steria won the national 10k track championship with minimal specialized training. In the rest of the world it would be the other way around.

 

[Discgear]

Re:

Yes they have all been tested, but we all know they are easy to beat. The off season is where the magic happens regarding steroids and other fat soluble drugs. In season it’s all about maintaining that steady high hemoglobin that you built during “enhanced” altitude camp with micro dosing or infusions or stuff we don’t know about.

Vo2 max at about 70 is really good in cycling, but not for xc. In cycling you are using legs only, in xc it’s full body which enables a lot more oxygen to be burned. The athletes frequently test in the high 80’s up to 90++. Also, xc is a more vo2 heavy sport with 5min climbs and rest.

In Norway, the skiers are the top athletes in the country, it’s where all the money and fame is. Norwegian skier Kristin Stormer Steria won the national 10k track championship with minimal specialized training. In the rest of the world it would be the other way around.

Don't forget the stone grinding.

 

[Cloxxki]

Please tell me a formerly (or afterly) penalized Sundby won't be moved up because the Russians did get caught? I really don't ffeel like watching skiing anymore this way. Russians get caught, Norwegians only have "asthma" misunderstandings, yeah right... From a guy studying Norwegian, and an actual asthma sufferer: BLEGH!

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Yes they have all been tested, but we all know they are easy to beat. The off season is where the magic happens regarding steroids and other fat soluble drugs. In season it’s all about maintaining that steady high hemoglobin that you built during “enhanced” altitude camp with micro dosing or infusions or stuff we don’t know about.

Vo2 max at about 70 is really good in cycling, but not for xc. In cycling you are using legs only, in xc it’s full body which enables a lot more oxygen to be burned. The athletes frequently test in the high 80’s up to 90++. Also, xc is a more vo2 heavy sport with 5min climbs and rest.

In Norway, the skiers are the top athletes in the country, it’s where all the money and fame is. Norwegian skier Kristin Stormer Steria won the national 10k track championship with minimal specialized training. In the rest of the world it would be the other way around.

To the first bold: I have no idea how hard or easy they are to beat.

To the second: Like Johaug, right? Offseason steroids. Not being tested for over four months.

Agree about VO2 max being important, but ctually 70 for a woman isn't bad, it's average if not slightly above average, but it also depends on the testing protocols. Not all VO2 max tests are the same.

The last part: I think we have all heard this numerous times, both in this forum, many norwegian news outlets and out there in the real world. That may fly with beginners or those that simply don't want to believe that the Norwegians are suspicious, but those of us that do a bit of research and can add things together, know that those statements cannot fly that easily. We know that xc skiing is huge in Norway, but that doesn't mean that doping there isn't possible or that it hasn't happened or isn't happening.

 

[Cloxxki]

XC may be huge in Norway, but not to the point of making up for the difference of hard core doping by huge skiing country Russia (or so they imply) and they unquestioned hardcore training mentality. Sports and doping don't work that way, and certainly not skiing.

 

[kingjr]

Technique-wise the Norwegians seem to have an edge IMO, they have so many athletes and the majority of them looks really smooth on skis.

 

[Cloxxki]

Re:

Technique-wise the Norwegians seem to have an edge IMO, they have so many athletes and the majority of them looks really smooth on skis.

There is no denying.
But, what's the gain from looking really smooth? Can it make up so much that a clean as a whistle Norwegian can beat an evil hard core doped Russian who was selected from a big BIG skiing nation? Think back on some threads and articles on how much this doping actually helps. Defies all logic.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

Technique-wise the Norwegians seem to have an edge IMO, they have so many athletes and the majority of them looks really smooth on skis.

Yeah, because Northug, Johaug, Weng, Falla, Iversen....are so smooth, right? Rickardsson is smooth, why doesn't he have as many wins as Sundby? Poltoranin should be undefeated in classic races, right? Niskanen as well.

Belov is extremely smooth, so too Bessmertnykh, Vylegzhanin looks pretty good when he extends on the diagonal and double pole kick. Sedov is one of the smoothest skate skiers around, particularly on the V2.

 

[Cloxxki]

Smooth is the new stonegrind.
Really it may mean they're just not needing to dig quite as deep.

 

[meat puppet]

Please cite a source for 80-90ish vo2max values for females. I doubt they exist. The highest i have come across is 76 from this paper looking at the training of Norwegian gold medal winners: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0101796

Olympiatoppens Tonnesen is involved, read into that whatever you like. Also sub 70 can land you a gold metal, though the avg amongst the female winners in the study is around 73.

The point is that athletes from other nations are not talentless or even a lot behind based on indicators of endurance capacity.

 

[Cloxxki]

Don't top athletes tend tend to "peak" less for ergometer tests than for races? Some cyclists come to mind.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

Don't top athletes tend tend to "peak" less for ergometer tests than for races? Some cyclists come to mind.

Yes. Although i think most would test on more specific roller skis & treadmill these days.

Even so I think I need to see 80+ before i believe it. Moreover, if tests reporting non genuine peak values is a valid guestimate, it probably applies across the board, in which case the comparison is between athletes' preparation season values. Which dont seem that far apart.

This adds a variable of who peaks the highest into the equation about the level determinants to be sure. Is the observed differerence due to this then? Maybe.

However, my guess would be that the other two of "big three" ie fractional utilization of vo2 and efficiency, are just as important.

Interesting as this is, we have even less data about these. So to conclude, about a 70ml/kg/min vo2max is not bad but quite excellent for a top level female endurance athletes. Feel free to disagree, i just found it out of place to claim that others lack ability.