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Doping in XC skiing

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I sometimes wonder if this board might be inhabited by paid Russian trolls. When you see how certain people react in the face of a huge state sponsored doping in Russia and making false equivalency fallacies and try to undermine the credibility of all official doping organizations with conspiracy theories. Using words such as “allegedly” and poisoning the well of witnesses and informants.
Meanwhile, the very same people were extremely vocal and harsh in their judgement of Sundby and Johaug (for good reason I might add). It seems as if there is a clear bias here, if not plain state sponsored misinformation.
 
Re:

Oude Geuze said:
I sometimes wonder if this board might be inhabited by paid Russian trolls. When you see how certain people react in the face of a huge state sponsored doping in Russia and making false equivalency fallacies and try to undermine the credibility of all official doping organizations with conspiracy theories. Using words such as “allegedly” and poisoning the well of witnesses and informants.
Meanwhile, the very same people were extremely vocal and harsh in their judgement of Sundby and Johaug (for good reason I might add). It seems as if there is a clear bias here, if not plain state sponsored misinformation.


Ooooooh you found me out!
 
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)
 
Re:

Oude Geuze said:
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)


I get paid one hundred gazillion rubles (and some NOK on the side) for spreading Putin's propaganda. I also have a flat in central St. Petersburg. It's yuuuuge.
 
Re:

Oude Geuze said:
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)
Okay, that's enough of the "Russian troll" accusations.

BullsFan22 is not a "paid Russian troll". If you don't believe it, please keep it to yourself. If you actually believe "paid Russian trolls" are posting on these boards you can report them and let the moderators do their jobs. You can also PM mods to give any notice as to who's trolling the clinic, otherwise please don't clog the discussion with these accusations.

Cheers
 
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Oude Geuze said:
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)
Okay, that's enough of the "Russian troll" accusations.

BullsFan22 is not a "paid Russian troll". If you don't believe it, please keep it to yourself. If you actually believe "paid Russian trolls" are posting on these boards you can report them and let the moderators do their jobs. You can also PM mods to give any notice as to who's trolling the clinic, otherwise please don't clog the discussion with these accusations.

Cheers
appreciate your involvement , dan...in a sister thread in the cafe (nordic skiing/biathlon),the same individual used blanket accusation of ' hatred and venom found in the clinic' directed at several posters who didn't quite appreciate his fave skier. clearly personal attitudes towards athletes vary, and may sometimes involve a plain vanilla dislike for whatever reason, but blanket accusations of hatred due to suspected doping were not only off-topic there, but bordering on bating/trolling/insulting. sorry, if it only now crossed my mind to mention....
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Irondan said:
Oude Geuze said:
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)
Okay, that's enough of the "Russian troll" accusations.

BullsFan22 is not a "paid Russian troll". If you don't believe it, please keep it to yourself. If you actually believe "paid Russian trolls" are posting on these boards you can report them and let the moderators do their jobs. You can also PM mods to give any notice as to who's trolling the clinic, otherwise please don't clog the discussion with these accusations.

Cheers
Why do you mind Russian troll accusations? Is that against forum rules?

Well, Bullsfan22 certainly is intentionally manipulating things to look better for Russians (regarding Russian doping scandal). Is that called trolling? Thank you for answer.
 
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Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Irondan said:
Oude Geuze said:
Yeah, I might have, I’ve read many of your post in several threads and you parrot Russian government talking points verbatim. It’s almost comical. You’re involved in any and all threads pertaining to Russian doping accusations, always acting outraged, changing subject in threads from Russian doping scandal to “what about everyone else?” You never do this about any other nation.
This is a recent excerpt from a post in a different clinic thread:

“Well it's true that Rodchenkov has a 'scandalous reputation.' He even admitted to fraud, attempted suicide and blamed his wife. If he was so anti-doping, he would have stopped long before 2015. Exchanging clean samples with dirty samples or vice versa is incredibly scoundrel-like in itself.”

You’re not attacking the evidence, as it’s overwhelming. Rather, you attack the character of informants and credibility of doping bureaus, classic propaganda tactics.
I just try to picture you saying anything like this about Johaug or team Sky controversy, it would never happen. So it’s not too far fetched to assume you’re a shill:)
Okay, that's enough of the "Russian troll" accusations.

BullsFan22 is not a "paid Russian troll". If you don't believe it, please keep it to yourself. If you actually believe "paid Russian trolls" are posting on these boards you can report them and let the moderators do their jobs. You can also PM mods to give any notice as to who's trolling the clinic, otherwise please don't clog the discussion with these accusations.

Cheers
Why do you mind Russian troll accusations? Is that against forum rules?

Well, Bullsfan22 certainly is intentionally manipulating things to look better for Russians (regarding Russian doping scandal). Is that called trolling? Thank you for answer.
No answer, should I take it for yes, Bullsfan22 is trolling? Isn't trolling forbidden here?
 
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Rider said:
Kokoso said:
Why is Rodchenkov scoundrel? Because he told the truth?
Which truth? Truth about test-tubes? How could you prove that this time "the truth" about test tubes is better than Colin Powell's "truth" about tubes?
The truth that Russians are doping and manipulating samples.
 
And here comes the truth about "manipulating samples" ***.

- Filipp Berch, advocate for Russian bobsleigh / skeleton team found out the way IOC commission managed to open tubes worked just with the tubes HALF closed. If the tube was closed properly, with 15 clicks, IOC commission could not open it without full destruction of the lid.

- All tubes were given to doping officials fully (15 clicks) closed which confirmed in official papers.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re:

Rider said:
1 test for Ukraine for both men and women? O test for Korea? Beautiful.

And you call it no politics?
There is very good reason why Russian's are tested more than others; it's understandable.

Korea isn't even on the list.
 
Re:

Oude Geuze said:
Norway tested more than anyone but Russia, and most of all countries in October ‘17, also due to Crimea and Syria?

Nope. That's because Asthma and poor little Therese.

And maybe partially because they destroy the rest of the field regularly. Isn't top 3-4 of the race always tested? You can't explain Russia figures (just) because of that.

Edit: Norway took in total 15 top 3 positions in World Cup competitions in Ruka at the end of November. So massive 5 other tests in the whole month of November, accross all FIS administred sports. Doesn't sound exessive to me.
 
I see, so previous doping predicts future testing of Norwegians, but in the case of Russians it’s a grand political conspiracy.
Btw, Norwegian athletes were the most tested of all in the month of October, short quiz: How many world tour top 3 podium finishes had they accumulated at that time?

And to the detractors of Maclaren report: when you find marks on B-sample tubes that are indicated to be doping in the leaked report from Rodchenkov, you open those bottles and find table salt in large quantities in an effort to match specific gravity of the A sample and you also find instances of female DNA in male athlete urin, you don’t think that is evidence of tampering and grand conspiracy? And you think it’s impossible for FSB to reverse engineer a mechanism to open these tubes given years of time and a huge budget? Laughable, and clear pro Russian bias, paid or not.
 
Re:

Oude Geuze said:
I see, so previous doping predicts future testing of Norwegians, but in the case of Russians it’s a grand political conspiracy.
Btw, Norwegian athletes were the most tested of all in the month of October, short quiz: How many world tour top 3 podium finishes had they accumulated at that time?

And to the detractors of Maclaren report: when you find marks on B-sample tubes that are indicated to be doping in the leaked report from Rodchenkov, you open those bottles and find table salt in large quantities in an effort to match specific gravity of the A sample and you also find instances of female DNA in male athlete urin, you don’t think that is evidence of tampering and grand conspiracy? And you think it’s impossible for FSB to reverse engineer a mechanism to open these tubes given years of time and a huge budget? Laughable, and clear pro Russian bias, paid or not.

Yes, it should. And I never said Russian testing is political conspiracy did I? I think Russian testing level is exactly right given the amount of positive tests of Russian athletes compared to other countries. As for Norway equally. Actually Norwegian test figure is rather low compared to i.e. Sweden and Finland in relation to positive test results past few years.

I just wonder what made them almost stop out-of-competition testing for Norwegians between October and November?
 
Oude Geuze, and what did you say to the detractors of Colin Powell's report? What about those "instances of WMD"? Were they ever found in Iraq?

Why the *** about salt and women DNA in tubes is any different from *** about WMD samples in tubes?
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Rider said:
Kokoso said:
There is very good reason why Russian's are tested more than others;
Absolutely. The name of the reason is Crimea. And Syria, partly
Norwegians are tested so much because of Crimea and Syria, too? You've decided not to answer Oude Geuze's answer and well you know why - becuase he's spot on. Instead
 
My email to the British Europort commentators.

Dear Patrick, Mike and David,

As a long-time follower of your biathlon and XC broadcasts, I feel I cannot remain silent anymore on the matter.

Every time a Russian athlete (most of them until now to be presumed clean), some strong insinuations and disdain are shared.
When it's about Norwegians, there seems to be another standard.

Let's not run around bush. Sundby makes a habit of over-dosing asthma medicines for which he never got a medical waiver. He gets it administered on the much-lauded second floor of the wax trailer. Nebulized even, which is the non-standard for of administration. 1600ug gram of Salbutal are allowed, but 200ug already tends to sufffice for most sufferers, like myself. I can't walk to the supermarket almost without needing a hit. The same 200ug hit suffices for all-out cold start running. Despite dilution with lots of water, Sundy managed to be way above 1600ug. This is not an accident. This is the result of using, daily, a many times over anabolic dose of what actual patients need only a tiny bit of. Dosage is of course measured very conservatively.
Sundby lost a few results, but not a single race. Not a word from the commentator team over the magnitude of his doping, the obvious anabolic benefit he got, from a state-run "I can't believe it's not doping" program. Talking about secret rooms to taint samples...Norway has a secret room for taking illegal dosages of stimulants with so happen to be allowed up to a very high dosage for asthma sufferers, without paperwork.

Johaug, the blatant lies, backpedaling and obvious disregard of protocol, the arrogance with which she and the team handled her case, seems to get a total thumbs up pass from the British commentating team also. As if her dosage is possible with a lip balm. As if the required criminal levels of disregard exist for both a team doctor and atlete to miss the bolded "DOPING" sign on the least conspicuous medicine container they were able to come up with. Does it need to be spelled out to you? Norwegians take any steroid which theoretically is on the market as a balm or something, and because of lax testing (Therese is not exactly used to being tested off-season, she's above all suspicion, of course...), they slipped up, and didn't have the right container on hand, didn't fiile paperwork for it, and had to act stupid. Does this stupidity exist, do you believe that in your hearts? From such a dominant skiing nation?

Do you honestly believe that the huge 2nd world skiing country that is Russia needs to dope its athletes to the gills just to finish close to the ultra-cclean Norwegians? With all your sports knowledge, you are then looking away from the VAST effect that doping has. It is so huge, that it overcomes basically all talent and training deficiency, certainly at World Cup level. If Russians were the only doping country, and doping hard, they'd be doing to the field what the Norwegian women do in theirs. It's simple science and logic, rather than western politically correct retoric.

Have you forgotten Lance Armstrong, deemed cleaner than clean, casually beating all the EPO topped up Italian and Spanish superclimbers, having been a classics specialist until deathbed? What have commentators learned from that?
You have a sport to comment on, but bashing Russians just because it's the popular thing to do, it doesn't suit you. It's an insult to viewers who have read up a bitt on the matter, and it doesn'tt help the sport keep the likes of Norway to the same standards.

As a long time fan of the three of you, I am deeply disappointed by the tone and content of your words on the matter.
And this is coming from a hobby skier/racer who is a Norway fan. Used to idolize little Therese. Is actively learning the language preparing for getting a fflat or cabin there. Truth just needs to be told, and I feel you've been doing truth a disjustice. You do know bettter, and your audience deserves better.

Regards,

Jan Gerrit Klok
The Netherlands