Doping in XC skiing

[Oude Geuze]

How is corticosteroids a performance enhancing drug? I just can’t find any solid data on it. How we classically view fx prednisone, it’s about the last thing you’d ever want to take for performance, muscle wasting through gluconeogenesis, weight gain from increased central fat deposition and fluid retention, thinning of connective tissue, tendons blood vessels and skin, insulin resistance/hyperglycemia, hypertension etc etc
Does anyone have any studies or is this based more on hearsay?

 

[ToreBear]

I have only loosely followed the sky stuff. But IMHO it's the TUE committee who has erred if he was given something he shouldn't have. Same with Rasmussen. It's likely a difficult balance between what should be treated and whether it is more to enhance performance. But that's for the committee to figure out who are the medical experts. Wada has full oversight of this process.

 

[Oude Geuze]

I get the whole “if an athlete needs corticosteroids, he shouldn’t compete due to health” -argument, but in this forum, glucocorticoids are treated on par with epo and anabolic steroids in the “hierarchy of ped’s”, and I can’t really figure out why, except that it might allow you to train/compete through injury.

 

[meat puppet]

Along with loads of anecdotal testimonies from pros, and the history of absuing corticoids in sports, this study about the effects of prednisolone was pretty easy to find (might be behind a wall). Subjects were recreational athletes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17805102/

CONCLUSION: From these data, short-term Pred intake did seem to significantly improve performance during submaximal exercise, with concomitant alterations in hormonal and metabolic responses. Further studies will be necessary to elucidate the mechanisms of these hormonal and metabolic changes, and to determine whether the changes may be associated with the marked performance improvement obtained.

So i think it is not only about hearsay and though the general conclusion may well be challenge-able, it seems to corroborate what the pros state.

The lead author has also published another study concluding that immediate intake has no immediate benefit to performance.

 

[Oude Geuze]

I found that one, but it’s only 10 people and I would like to read the whole. Of course, it’s possible to immagine increased glucose availability would yield significant performance gains in athletes, but it seems almost all research is done on regular people for disease modifying purposes and thus very different effects and side effects would be expected.

 

[BullsFan22]

How much can a doper dope?

 

[Saint Unix]

How much can a doper dope?

To answer your question I'm introducing a new measurement unit for PEDs called the bjørgen.

One bjørgen equates to ten sh*tloads of dope.

 

[meat puppet]

Re:

I found that one, but it’s only 10 people and I would like to read the whole. Of course, it’s possible to immagine increased glucose availability would yield significant performance gains in athletes, but it seems almost all research is done on regular people for disease modifying purposes and thus very different effects and side effects would be expected.

This review discusses the literature that existed in 2010 and elucidates the relevant physiological mechanism in an explicit doping context. In doing so some of the "counter intuitive" points you raised in a couple posts are addressed. See for yourself:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47500273_Evidence_on_Ergogenic_Action_of_Glucocorticoids_as_a_Doping_Agent_Risk

The author concludes glucocorticoids are potent doping agents and should remain banned.

More generally, it is known that athletes use corticoids. There are testimonies suggesting this is not just for remedying injuries. What would be the rationale for this use if the hypothesis is that no ergogenic benefits are available from use - Placebo, tradition, hypochondria, what?

 

[Oude Geuze]

Nice, thank you.

 

[lartiste]

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

 

[Pazuzu]

Re:

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

That'd be my suspicion. Ever since Bjoergen started using asthma meds right before the 2010 Olympics she's been superhuman. It's hard to believe asthma medication alone would make that much of a difference. Also, athletes are supposed to decline by the time they're in the late 30s. But not Bjoergen, she's killing it... just like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemons did when they were on the wrong side of 35.

 

[Parker]

Re:

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.

Yes, there's no evidence I'm aware of that salbutamol can act as a masking agent for steroids. Because of its structure, it interacts with a different transporter class than most steroids do.

 

[rick james]

Re:

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Of course your doctor said that

 

[python]

the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...

 

[Barkintheeye]

I do honestly hope that Bjoergen is completely clean as it would be a massive blow to XC-skiing if the opposite was to be true. It would be more devastating than Armstrong ever was to road cycling.

Marit had amazing skiis last weekend at Holmenkollen which actually shows how impossible it is to analyze XC performances. Technique, waxing, skis and the daily form of the athlete make for a very complex equation that may generate extraordinary results without anything suspicious... or at least I hope so.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

My doc told me, that astma inhalers hides steroids in urine samples. Looking at Marit Bjoergen, she is most probably right.

Don't tell us. Report your findings to WADA. This would be new information to them. Your doctor has clearly uncovered something unknown to WADA. I have no reason to doubt your doctor or to doubt that you asked him anything. This is explosive new testimony, so can you promise that you will communicate this information to the authorities.

Yes, there's no evidence I'm aware of that salbutamol can act as a masking agent for steroids. Because of its structure, it interacts with a different transporter class than most steroids do.

? Marit Bjoergen is not even using salbutamol, she uses (or at least used formerly) Symbicort.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...

Well surely lartiste's doctor did not have in mind inhalers containing corticosteroids, because such inhalers would not hide (cortico)steroids for sure :razz:

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

Technique, waxing, skis and the daily form of the athlete make for a very complex equation that may generate extraordinary results without anything suspicious... or at least I hope so.

And this VERY COMPLEX equation clicks perfectly for Marit Bjoergen for years now, especially in big events = if what's you say is right she would have to be EXTREMELY lucky. Every day she has had perfect daily form and this very complex equation played for her.

We know she is notentirely clean, she's using corticoids and beta-2-agonists and those are performance enhancing drugs.

 

[lartiste]

Re:

the asthma inhalers include NOT only those with salbutamol, but also the corticosteroid inhalers...pulmicort being the one brand mentioned often...i have no idea what lartiste's doc had in mind and whether salbutamol indeed was the subject, but a corticosteroid effect on testosterone was studied. it depressed the testo levels...the anaboilic steroids ARE derivatives of testo, but i am not aware of a research (not that it does not exist) of using ICS for masking AA steroids...

that said, indeed the salbutamol use has not been suspected as a masking agent for sterroids...

Sorry not to answer earlier, but the reason to visit doc was to do something with huge sore I have from cycling, I got three different creams, one of which was triamcinolone. So my answer was, that I can finally use injection triamcinolone without taking risk to be positive and her answer was, that much better are inhalers which can work as masking agents for AS. Unsure whether she had in mind salbutamol inhalers or other inhalers. I am not sure whether asthma inhalers can influence outcome of urine sample testing, but in my opinion it is possible.

 

[lartiste]

And I commented Marit since she is not women, if someone assumes, that she is "clean" then probably even LA was clean .

 

[Rider]

Doped Koukalova will not return. Good news.

 

[Barkintheeye]

So Krista Pärmäkoski has a TUE for doping classed substances that she "doesn't want to talk about b/c it's personal".

All athletes that have a TUE should have a TUE-label and a Medicine specification on what illegal drugs they have been allowed to take. It should be apparent to all how far the athletes and the national teams have taken this.

 

[Rider]

Re:

All athletes that have a TUE should have a TUE-label and a Medicine specification on what illegal drugs they have been allowed to take.

Absolutely.

 

[Bolder]

http://www.lemonde.fr/ski/article/2018/03/23/dopage-sang-trouble-dans-le-ski-de-fond-francais_5275123_1616667.html

Even the French were doing it.