Doping in XC skiing

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Sep 25, 2009
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has this been posted ?

swedish SVT will broadcast next week a new documentary on doping in xc skiing. ‘it will explode the sporting world’, so said the producers.

http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/vm/2013/artikkel.php?artid=10100971

explode or not (in fact, i doubt the thread‘s regulars will learn anything not already posted here), but saltin is again the source of suspicions. this time he is almost explicitly pointing the finger at the xc dominant northern neighbor.

my speculation is that we will again see the blood values from the saltin fis power point linked here several times.

anything new there ?

the article says some other indirect evidence will be shown (like trips home for alleged transfusions in the middle of world championships). more interviews too. but hardly any new conclusive evidence of doping. nor do i expect any new names revealed.
 
Apr 7, 2011
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python said:
has this been posted ?

swedish SVT will broadcast next week a new documentary on doping in xc skiing. ‘it will explode the sporting world’, so said the producers.

http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/vm/2013/artikkel.php?artid=10100971

explode or not (in fact, i doubt the thread‘s regulars will learn anything not already posted here), but saltin is again the source of suspicions. this time he is almost explicitly pointing the finger at the xc dominant northern neighbor.

my speculation is that we will again see the blood values from the saltin fis power point linked here several times.

anything new there ?

the article says some other indirect evidence will be shown (like trips home for alleged transfusions in the middle of world championships). more interviews too. but hardly any new conclusive evidence of doping. nor do i expect any new names revealed.
Sounds interesting. Dou you speak swedish? Would be cool if someone who speaks swedish could report us about this programm.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Kristian said:
Charlotte Kalla confirmed something I have thought for a long time today. She trained with the Norwegian ladies this summer and was surprised by how much they trained. She said that they at least train 100 hours more then her yearly and need to train more herself.

link to the interview:

http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/vm/2013/artikkel.php?artid=10107663

Congratulations to Dario C. Well deserved!!
Dutch speed skaters and coaches said that about East Germans back in the late 80's. Openly suggesting it was made possible by doping.
And then an injured Dutch skater got 3 golds in Calgary (altitude), most with WR's. Summary: believe in yourself and be smart :) Right...
 
Bavarianrider said:
Sounds interesting. Dou you speak swedish? Would be cool if someone who speaks swedish could report us about this programm.
I can possibly help out.

Uppdrag Granskning is an investigative journalistic program in Sweden, has been running for as long as I can remember. I have high hopes for this...
 
Jul 8, 2010
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Ok guys, I have a question. So I have a "friend" out there, who was surprised, that Weng was so good today, because he hasn't got any exceptional performance in the world cup, and also wasn't too good in Davos. I simply said to him, that there is nothing special, he is 21 years old, 6th in the world cup, what more she need to do? I also mentioned that they should peak for this weekend not 1 week before the WCH. He said that it's not true, they should peak one week before because there is zero possibility to get in better shape in one week, or drop some.
Opinion?
 
There are many explanations. The ridiculously good Norwegian skis is one, the fact that this was a mass start is another. And ones form can even vary day to day, so she had an up day today.

And certain things can happen in a week. When people do try to ease up on the training to find form actually varies, and Weng might not have been easing up quite as much as others by that point (Davos).

I don't know if there's any basis to the claim that your form stays level for a week straight. Does he not think there's ANY gradual improvements or dips in form that can happen over the course of a week?

To question Weng by looking at her performance in Davos is ridiculous though. She might well be on the juice, but it's not like this was a sudden jump to being fantastic - she's extremely talented and has podiumed in a WC race before.
 
May 19, 2010
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http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/antidopingchefens-dom-svt-tankte-fel/ Swedish

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/antidopingchefens-dom-svt-tankte-fel/ Google translate

Rasmus Damsgaard likes the program, he observes. But there's a problem.
- The results they have received is analyzed using a machine that is not very accurate, says Rasmus Damsgaard.

It's about a so-called blood scanner. A machine that is no longer used in anti-doping work.
At first SVT did not know about this says Damsgaard.
- It was a misunderstanding. They had been told that it was a lab machine, but it was not.
- It makes the program go from being very good to ... it is almost as if one shrugs, yet again.
 
May 19, 2010
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The program can be watched at here Wednesday 27 February at 20.00 CET. It will be available for ca 3 months. I don't think there is any geo restriction.
 
May 19, 2010
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SVT's Uppdrag granskning had interviewed Vegard Ulvang (who was very unhappy about how they did things, tapeing a phone interview without telling him, sending him one set of questions prior to the TV interview, but asking him other questions etc.) While he was giving an interview about this to the Swedish newspaper Expressen Ulvang got an e-mail from SVT telling him that he would not be mentioned in Uppdrag granskning on Wednesday, so he has been edited out.

http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/svt-klipper-bort-ulvang-efter-kritiken/

SVT says they will be focusing on skiers with hematocrit values over 17.

(SVT) - One reason for interviewing him, was that he had very high blood levels. Another is that he is an authority in FIS. Therefore, we asked him questions. But during our current work, we got even higher values ​​from other skiers. We set the limit at 170 and he was right under it.
From interviews in Norwegian papers we know that SVT has also interviewed Erling Jevne and Inggard Lereim. And Ulvang says in his interview with Expressen that SVT tried to get hold of Bjørn Dæhlie, but he wasn't available, so instead they filmed his wife at their home. SVT has also interviewed the presidents of the Norwegian and Swedish skiing federations. They were shown an early version of the program last week. Rasmus Damsgaard, as anti-doping expert of FIS, was also present. A few days later Damsgaard gave an interview where he said SVT had been misinformed and thought the blood scanner used for the analyzes was a lab machine, and that SVT should rather focus on those with really high numbers rather than big names. When they now say they will focus on skiers with numbers over 17 that might be an indication that they are going with Damsgaards suggestion.

Norwegian newspaper VG has written (at least twice) that Kari-Pekka Kyrö is one of SVT's sources.
 
May 14, 2009
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According to swedish press (Aftonbladet)
This skiiers will be in the program:
- Björn Dählie
- Vladimir Smirnov
- Silvio Fauner
- Erling Jevne
- Manuela Di Centa
- Marit Mikkelsplass
- Lars Håland

To bad they got scary and left out alot of people. I guess that 99% of they how lefted out was dopers anyway.
 
Sep 24, 2011
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There seems to be some disagreements to Saltins often repeated statement that every medal winner in Thunder Bay had values above 17.5. Peter Hemmingsson, antidopingchief at FIS at the time says samples were only taken from four races, one individual mens and womens race, mens relays and mens combined race.

and adds that no Norwegian or Swede had remarkable high values:

http://www.expressen.se/sport/langdskidor/dahlie-sagar-uppdrag-gransknings-research/ (in swedish)

Dæhlie had 16 point something when he arrived at the championship and was measured at 17.5 dehydrated at the end of a race with the inaccurate method (according to the Norwegian team doctor at the time)

http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/02/27/sport/ski-vm_2013/ski-vm_i_val_di_fiemme/langrenn/ski/25961607/ (norwegian)
 
Aug 9, 2012
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So much doping and so little time.:D

Just a comment of the swedish version of the finnish docu. They cut out some of the allegations against Swedes and changed the comment from the Norwegian doctor who treated athletes who had doping problems. In the first version it was said he treated XC skiers, this he apearantly did not say.

The cut swedish parts removes the hints in the original film about Saltin being a doping doctor.

Anyway when I have time ill go deeper into the film, because there is a lot of interesting info there. Like Tapio Videman experimenting on young Finns with doping in the 70s and 80s.



On this new swedish docu, they seem to be based on already known information, but perhaps the debate following this docu will elaborate on the errors in measurement of the studies from the 90s. I think the statistics have been skewed by these errors. But that is not something I have time to go deeper into right now.

It seems they will ask someone who has studied ped use in cycling if xc skiers could win with out doping. He will say no. But I think he is inferring cycling equals XC. This seems to be a recurring error among scientists who study ped use in cycling. I don't think they understand just how important efficiency is in xc.

http://fasterskier.com/article/aerobic-capacity-bjorn-daehlie-and-predictors-of-endurance-greatness/
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-010-1372-3

But it's good that all these issues are brought up so they can be debated.

Now I'm going to watch the XC, so no time for any debate.
 
be glad to read your thoughts Tore. :)

couple points:

videman et al. - i think it is rather well established that there was something going on. cant substantiate anything in detali, but the claims made appear credible enough.

on a more general level, if the implication re saltin is even remotely accurate, the film paints a familiar picture: the supposed anti doping elite saltin, videman, lereim etc were in fact deep in the game.

not to urinate on saltin; but plenty on videman and lereim, though.

efficiency - it is obvious that it is more important in xc skiing than in cycling, and I for one think no one is implying otherwise. this on is a certainty.

and yet we have kowalczyk and we had muhlegg. against raw power you can only gain so much with efficiency. call it a returns to scale strategy, or something. ;)

well, some things you can't explain away...
 
Aug 9, 2012
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meat puppet said:
be glad to read your thoughts Tore. :)

couple points:

videman et al. - i think it is rather well established that there was something going on. cant substantiate anything in detali, but the claims made appear credible enough.

on a more general level, if the implication re saltin is even remotely accurate, the film paints a familiar picture: the supposed anti doping elite saltin, videman, lereim etc were in fact deep in the game.

not to urinate on saltin; but plenty on videman and lereim, though.

efficiency - it is obvious that it is more important in xc skiing than in cycling, and I for one think no one is implying otherwise. this on is a certainty.

and yet we have kowalczyk and we had muhlegg. against raw power you can only gain so much with efficiency. call it a returns to scale strategy, or something. ;)

well, some things you can't explain away...
Plenty on Lerheim? No. Anything? No.

Kyro wants everyone else to have been as guilty as he was. It's understandable. This is the original argument he used towards himself when he got into the doping bussiness. That those guys his guys beat were in fact clean is hard for him to accept. He is only human and needs some shrink time to accept reality.

The rest requires long debate. This I have the urge to go into, but that will cut into my XC enjoyment time. So I'll have to resist the urge to comment as best I can untill time allows me otherwise.

Now I'm going to have a cigarette, and put my 16,5 hgb/49,5% behind down in front of the TV.;)
 
ToreBear said:
Plenty on Lerheim? No. Anything? No.

Kyro wants everyone else to have been as guilty as he was. It's understandable. This is the original argument he used towards himself when he got into the doping bussiness. That those guys his guys beat were in fact clean is hard for him to accept. He is only human and needs some shrink time to accept reality.

The rest requires long debate. This I have the urge to go into, but that will cut into my XC enjoyment time. So I'll have to resist the urge to comment as best I can untill time allows me otherwise.

Now I'm going to have a cigarette, and put my 16,5 hgb/49,5% behind down in front of the TV.;)
as I said, I value your contributions and will continue to do so.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Let's keep in mind that:

High blood values are less common in elite endurance athletes than the general population.

Hb normalizes rather quickly when returning to altitude.

After the 170 g/dl limit was introduced, there used to be this one guy with a medical exemption. It is NOT common.
 
May 19, 2010
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http://www.nrk.no/ytring/vare-skilopere-var-ikke-dopet-1.10929118

Ola Rønsen (former team doctor for the Norwegian skiing federation) and Peter Hemmingsson (former member of the FIS Anti-Doping Committee and team doctor for the Swedish skiing federation) hits back.

Four sources of error:
Below we explain why hemoglobin values ​​had large errors and should be interpreted with caution. It is largely on four factors:

1. The FIS blood samples taken before 2001 under widely varying conditions
give erroneously high values.

2. The measurements were carried out on bad instruments that had major errors and measured systematically too high values.

3. Several cross-country skiers have hemoglobin levels well above the population average and will naturally be above 16 g / dl for men or 15 g / dl for women.

4. Altitude training was done systematically in the 1990s, in both the Norwegian and Swedish team, could provide some of these athletes even higher hemoglobin values ​​(for example, in the 17th century for men and 16 for women's), but it was performed some form of manipulation of the blood.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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meat puppet said:
as I said, I value your contributions and will continue to do so.
The feeling is mutual.:)

Tyler'sTwin said:
Let's keep in mind that:

High blood values are less common in elite endurance athletes than the general population.

Hb normalizes rather quickly when returning to altitude.

After the 170 g/dl limit was introduced, there used to be this one guy with a medical exemption. It is NOT common.
Your first two original statements seem rather odd, but I don't have time to research(still remember I promised you a Hjelmeseth explanation too, I havent forgotten;))

The 170 g/dl as far as I know includes those that fall within 97,5% of the population. Meaning 2.5% will fall in an area above this value normally. These people fall in the category of 2 standard deviations from the mean.

This is how one usually defines what is "normal" IIRC.



If there are 3 billion men in the world, that means 75 million men will fall in an area above 170 g/dl.

Hence very rare.;) So this one guy you mentioned getting an exemption was he one of 30 who applied at a specific time?

Then there is the question. If you have a group of 100 athletes. Can they be expected to be the same as the general population? Or could the fact that they are athletes change the normal?


Difficult questions to answer. And I hate statistics(hence sorry if I write something incorrect).





neineinei said:
http://www.nrk.no/ytring/vare-skilopere-var-ikke-dopet-1.10929118

Ola Rønsen (former team doctor for the Norwegian skiing federation) and Peter Hemmingsson (former member of the FIS Anti-Doping Committee and team doctor for the Swedish skiing federation) hits back.
That looks like a good response. Now if only I had the time to read it.:D
 
in my very humble opinion, which is probably flawed, going after dählie and smirnov is a direct consequence of the recent realisation that no one and I repeat no one nut is too big to fall.

bet this will go on for some time. but this is excellent. if only it was applied to banking too.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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High Hb-values are less common in endurance athletes than the general population because of plasma expansion. Ask Vaughters what his normal Hb/Hct is and what it was in form (without EPO).
 

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