Doping in XC skiing

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May 19, 2010
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Saltin basically saying Kristen Skjeldal must have been microdosing EPO.

Here he is talking about the values published by Dagbladet in 2001:

- Kristen Kjeldal (sic) would have needed to be at 3000 meters above sea level in five weeks and then take the test at that height to get to the values. But no one can train at that height.
- If you combine these mens values, with the normal values ​​- it is well above the normal default values​​. I doubt that's normal values. It is well above 14.5 to 15 who had been normal.
- They've probably done something. It has, I think so.
What is it they have done?
- The easiest is the low-dose EPO. At that time they had just learned how to do.
- Facing one there on 17 to 17.5, up to 18 as some have, then it is manipulated in some way, says Saltin.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article16334102.ab (Swedish)

Somehow I doubt bringing Skjeldal into it will make the Norwegian side calm down.
 
Dec 31, 2011
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workingclasshero said:
how is having 'the world vo2 max record' (which in itself has been discussed here several times) a proof of NOT doping? for duck's sake! :D

Why do you say there is confirmed "no unnatural values for Nor or Swe skiers"?
yeah I know hemmingson (sp) has said that, you will say, but really:
We just have his words vs Saltin + other anon sources the SVT people say they have.

It was many years ago Saltin first came up with the Thunder Bay 17,5 claim, why hasn't hemmingsson (sp) said anything in all those years?
who says it's a proof he wasn't doping? I'm refuting a claim that he "had to dope to win".

FIS Press release:
Concerning the statement that all medal winners from 1995 had haemoglobin values over 17,5, this is refuted by Peter Hemmingsson, FIS Medical Supervisor at the 1995 Championships in Thunder Bay, who was involved with the testing there. He confirmed that blood testing was only carried out in three Cross-Country Skiing events and one Nordic Combined event and no Swedish or Norwegian athletes had haemoglobin values over 17,5.
http://www.skidor.com/ImageVaultFiles/id_14914/cf_7/FIS_Statement_SVT_Documentary.PDF

The 17.5 from Thunder Bay only exists in a power point by Saltin. He has no data, and has never seen the data. Saltin also says he doesn't remember making the graphs, he says the 17.5 value comes from a point-list he has had for a long time, but has no documentation for it.

Why would I believe Hemmingsson's claim about this is true? Because it was never the procedure to test 100% of the races, or even close to it, in the 90s, specially not as early as 95.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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dukoff said:
Why would I believe Hemmingsson's claim about this is true? Because it was never the procedure to test 100% of the races, or even close to it, in the 90s, specially not as early as 95.
why didn't he say this six or seven years ago? why highlight the point you did? makes no sense to me as Hemmingsson can't even agree with himself.

he is today quoted as saying blood was measured after only ONE race in the '95 wch. Yesterday he claimed it was after 3 of the men's races + a nordic combined race.

to conclude. Hemmingsson is full of contradictory shìt
 
Dec 31, 2011
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workingclasshero said:
why didn't he say this six or seven years ago? why highlight the point you did? makes no sense to me as Hemmingsson can't even agree with himself.

he is today quoted as saying blood was measured after only ONE race in the '95 wch. Yesterday he claimed it was after 3 of the men's races + a nordic combined race.

to conclude. Hemmingsson is full of contradictory shìt
I highlight it because it's an important point that suggest what fact is true or false, without being a "claim" from any party. A neutral but very significant observation.

If you can please include the link to Hemmingssons quote today? I have not seen such statement.
 
Feb 27, 2013
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neineinei said:
Saltin basically saying Kristen Skjeldal must have been microdosing EPO.

Here he is talking about the values published by Dagbladet in 2001:



http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article16334102.ab (Swedish)

Somehow I doubt bringing Skjeldal into it will make the Norwegian side calm down.
He's also pointing out Alsgaard and Solbakken, and probably could have pointed out mentioned Bjonviken as well.

I wonder why the filmmakers didn't make a segment based on the blood values given by the norwegian athletes? They didn't need secret documents from 1997.., the evidence of doping has been available since 2001.
 
Jun 21, 2009
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blueskies said:
the evidence of doping has been available since 2001.
jesus h christ, you are referring to the values provided by the athletes themselves? that's good enough for you? :eek:

You also believed armstrong's self published values didn't you? :D

even after he took them down and replaced them with 'new' values when he realised the numbers actually were evidence he did dope? :D :eek:
 
dukoff said:
Yes the documentary provides evidence of the doping culture. But it also gives factual evidence that in Lahti no Norwegian had >170, only one Swede at 175. For Thunder Bay there is confirmed no unnatural values for Norwegian or Swedish skiers.

Dæhlie has held for years the world record in VO2max at 96.0. He also has naturally high blood values, though with his VO2max he would not need 192 to beat Smirnov at 192. I could speculate Dæhlie has a mean Hb of 155 which I'm sure he would push to 170 with altitude training.

Hb is NOT horse power, VO2max is!
High doses of EPO increases VO2 max by massive amounts. If he were doped at the time of the test, his natural VO2 max might be closer to 85...
 
May 19, 2010
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workingclasshero said:
why didn't he say this six or seven years ago? why highlight the point you did? makes no sense to me as Hemmingsson can't even agree with himself.

he is today quoted as saying blood was measured after only ONE race in the '95 wch. Yesterday he claimed it was after 3 of the men's races + a nordic combined race.

to conclude. Hemmingsson is full of contradictory shìt
But they also did the screening before the race, for health reasons, right? So there should be a full set of data from Thunder Bay, shouldn't it?

If they only tested blood after one race it must have been one Dæhlie raced, because they've said this:

Former national team doctor Ola Rønsen saw the documentary with NRK late Tuesday evening. The doctor says to NRK that he has received permission from Dæhlie to say the following about the test in Thunder Bay:

- Dæhlie was usually at 16 something. When he comes to testing after the race in Thunder Bay, he is dehydrated. The blood was taken from the finger tip, not a venous sample and so on. It's no wonder that one can measure the values ​​of 17.5 Bjorn Daehlie says Rønsen.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/navngir-lopere-i-dopingdokumentar-1.10928792
 
May 20, 2010
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workingclasshero said:
why didn't he say this six or seven years ago? why highlight the point you did? makes no sense to me as Hemmingsson can't even agree with himself.

he is today quoted as saying blood was measured after only ONE race in the '95 wch. Yesterday he claimed it was after 3 of the men's races + a nordic combined race.

to conclude. Hemmingsson is full of contradictory shìt
I thought his original quote was that 3 cross country events (both male and female) and one nordic combined race was tested, and that his quote yesterday was that Dæhlie was tested in one of those test. I don't really see anything contradicting there, but maybe I've missed something.
 
Dec 31, 2011
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maltiv said:
High doses of EPO increases VO2 max by massive amounts. If he were doped at the time of the test, his natural VO2 max might be closer to 85...
Of course he could be. It's just that all the evidence points to the contrary. Dæhlie is the most consistent finisher in the history of cross country. He won in his first year in the world cup, and he consistently won through the whole season each and every year. In training camps in the summer, year around, he kept beating the competition hands down. No other skier has this reputation. One can of course believe everyone are doped and everyone is lying. But it will not be an objective view.

Take a look at his biography:

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&listid=&competitorid=12150&type=result&rec_start=0&limit=100

and compare it to Mika Myllylae

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&listid=&competitorid=42424&type=result&bt=next&limit=100&bt=prev&rec_start=20

or Muehlegg

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=CC&listid=&competitorid=41917&type=result&rec_start=0&limit=100

..and then tell me if Dæhlie does not deserve the benefit of doubt..
 
Jun 21, 2009
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dukoff said:
Of course he could be. It's just that all the evidence points to the contrary. Dæhlie is the most consistent finisher in the history of cross country. He won in his first year in the world cup, and he consistently won through the whole season each and every year. In training camps in the summer, year around, he kept beating the competition hands down. No other skier has this reputation. One can of course believe everyone are doped and everyone is lying. But it will not be an objective view.
for duck's sake! that could just as easily have been because he was doping!!! year round doping gives a year round advantage. more testo, more hgh, more consistent use of epo = never injured, always feeling fresh :cool:
 
Feb 27, 2013
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workingclasshero said:
jesus h christ, you are referring to the values provided by the athletes themselves? that's good enough for you? :eek:

You also believed armstrong's self published values didn't you? :D

even after he took them down and replaced them with 'new' values when he realised the numbers actually were evidence he did dope? :D :eek:
I don't think I've ever believed much of what Armstrong said, but that's not relevant for this case.

All I'm saying is that according to the anti doping guru Saltin, the values are indeed indicative of blood manipulation. In fact, he concludes that several of the skiers used doping and probably micro doses of EPO.

So why you're implying that the numbers are fake is weird, given that they do indicate doping, according to Saltin.

I'm just wondering why no one has pointed this out until today. I assume it will be part of the follow up documentary.
 
Dec 31, 2011
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workingclasshero said:
for duck's sake! that could just as easily have been because he was doping!!! year round doping gives a year round advantage. more testo, more hgh, more consistent use of epo = never injured, always feeling fresh :cool:
:rolleyes:.. And you will of course show me the skier with even a slightly resembling consistency who later was caught doping? Or are we talking about an alien super-drug that only the Norwegians have been offered?
 
Oct 24, 2012
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dukoff said:
:rolleyes:.. And you will of course show me the skier with even a slightly resembling consistency who later was caught doping? Or are we talking about an alien super-drug that only the Norwegians have been offered?
The main problem would probably be the very limited amount of people caught doping over the years. If consistency is a sign of being clean, then surely Vaelbe was much cleaner than Alsgaard? I'm sure you know that there's pretty much zero value in this reasoning, as there is in claiming Daehlie must be clean because he was consistent. He was really talented based on the consistency and that won't change no matter how clean or not.
 
Dec 31, 2011
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I know.. I know...

It's enough already. I feel like confessing.

It's just that...

...that it didn't start in the 90s..

It started in..

1924



and you know.. we were so far ahead of the game



Who could imagine, little Norway



already from 1924

 
Dec 31, 2011
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could make EPO..?



but.. as with all unbelievable things..



it was just too good to be true..

I'm sorry!
 
May 19, 2010
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http://sport.bt.no/sport/article270406.ece (Norwegian)

Skjeldals says: release my blood data. He also claims the blood values could be reached by any elite athlete, and that an experiment where elite athletes were subjected to the same altitude training he and the other Norwegians did, would prove it. He is even willing to part take in such an experiment himself, but notes his age and not being an elite skier anymore might change his results.

Thor-Øistein Endsjø, former doctor for the Norwegian Athletics Association and the Norwegian Skating Association, has however said that he is very curious about how the Norwegian skiers reached such high hemoglobin values in the 90's. He says the skiers were very secretive in the 80's and 90's, not sharing any information about their altitude training, and declining to provide documentation on how they reached their hemoglobin values.

- We also ran altitude training with our athletes, but were never close to the hemoglobin level cross country claim that they have received. Grete Waitz and Ingrid Kristiansen, who also did altitude training, never got over the values ​​of 12.5 and 14.5. Our experience was that altitude training could result in an increase of 0.5, says Endsjø and added:

- I'm filled with questions.
http://sport.bt.no/sport/skivm_2013/article270176.ece
 
May 19, 2010
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dukoff said:
could make EPO..?



but.. as with all unbelievable things..



it was just too good to be true..

I'm sorry!
Too bad you ran out of steam before you reached the 70's and 80's.
 
Feb 27, 2013
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dukoff said:
could make EPO..?



but.. as with all unbelievable things..



it was just too good to be true..

I'm sorry!
This is ridiculous.

The article from Bergens Tidende is very interesting.

It would be extremely intriguing to see all the data that we have from the 90s.

They can do experiments such as the one Skjeldal suggests, without giving away any "professional secrets", if a research group agrees to follow the experiment under such conditions.
 
Feb 27, 2013
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The Death Merchant said:
:D

Curiously Norway picks up the pace again in the 90's... The decade of the marvelous EPO. What a coincidence. :rolleyes:
And recent success is still because of doping? The domination in XC and biathlon is far, far more significant today than it was in 1995.

There might well have been a strong, doping regime in norwegian sports through the 90s and 00s, but your reasoning is still not worhy of Alex Jones. All you guys do is sit around and throw sarcasms. It's absolutely worthless, especially when there's so much interesting to discuss and so much real, calculated insight to gain.
 
Feb 27, 2013
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The Death Merchant said:
Now this is interesting. Mr Rasmus "systematic error caused the high blood values or Norwegians" Damsgaard worked with Lance Armstrong at Astana. And he claimed that Lance was clean. That's Damsgaard's credibility down the drain right there.

http://www.svt.se/sport/fis-antidopningsexpert-far-kritik
This can't possibly be news for you?

Were you not aware that he worked with the anti-doping program on CSC as well?

Why do you write "the norwegians" in plural, when the samples from 1997 which were in question when Damsgaard was interviewed, when it only showed one norwegian girl to be high enough to be mentioned in the program? He made his comments on false grounds.

Damsgaard is not the only source for the uncertainties of the HemoCue machine, so it doesn't really matter in this context what his credibility is.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Gotland said:
Sweden has relesed all bloodvalues from they in the team at the moment. No names:

Skier 1, Male
Lowest: 143
Highest: 166

Skier 2, Male
Lowest: 136
Highest: 147

Skier 3, Male
Lowest: 146
Highest: 147

Skier 4, Male
Lowest: 149
Highest: 164

Skier 5, Male
Lowest: 141
Highest: 155

Skier 6, Male
Lowest: 150
Highest: 164

Skier 7, Female
Lowest: 135
Highest: 154

Skier 8, Female
Lowest: 145
Highest: 145

Skier 9, Female
Lowest: 142
Highest: 142

Skier 10, Female
Lowest: 136
Highest: 136

Skier 11, Female
Lowest: 119
Highest: 149

Skier 12, Female
Lowest: 127
Highest: 146

Skier 13, Male
Lowest: 146
Highest: 146

Skier 14, Male
Lowest: 143
Highest: 155

Skier 15, Male
Lowest: 165
Highest: 177

Don't know so much about this to say something else. I think it's good that they do this. They also thinking about reveal all the values ​​from the 90's. And all skiiers in the press have been positive so far about doing this. Hopefully all countries do the same. Would be intresting to compere.

Link to the hole article: http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/vintersport/skidor/article16334130.ab (Swedish)
Didn't get it to work on google translate.
Meh, not enough information to even begin to draw any conclusions. Weak.

I liked this quote:

- This woman here has been at 119 at the lowest. It is after the Tour de Ski as blood values ​​for extended exertion drops. But they wont decrease if you're up to no good.
 

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