Doping in XC skiing

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Only a selected few of the WC skiers have a chance at ski classic, but a few more could do well with specific training.

Im of the opionon that basically all the good WC skiers (perhaps except of the smaller guys like Desloges, Lapalus, Tildheim Andersen etc) would be dominating the Ski Classics scene if they went all in for that. A fully motivated Klæbo, Nyenget, Iversen, Niskanen, Stenshagen, Amundsen etc would of course be able to compete with "Axel Jutterström", "Ole Jørgen Bruvoll" and "Jeremy Royer" if they trained for it during one summer. My favorite example is Petter Eliasson, which for some years was a pretty mediocre World Cup skier with strenghts in skating and preferabbly in harder courses. Then he got dropped from the national team at 30-31 and went straight on to dominate Ski Classics.

Meaning: in my eyes are the Ski Classics definitively the B-Scene, but they do have good PR and it is fascinating to see how for example Myhlbäck seems to be of the opinion that Ski Classics is equally prestigious as the World Cup.

 

[AmRacer]

Im of the opionon that basically all the good WC skiers (perhaps except of the smaller guys like Desloges, Lapalus, Tildheim Andersen etc) would be dominating the Ski Classics scene if they went all in for that. A fully motivated Klæbo, Nyenget, Iversen, Niskanen, Stenshagen, Amundsen etc would of course be able to compete with "Axel Jutterström", "Ole Jørgen Bruvoll" and "Jeremy Royer" if they trained for it during one summer. My favorite example is Petter Eliasson, which for some years was a pretty mediocre World Cup skier with strenghts in skating and preferabbly in harder courses. Then he got dropped from the national team at 30-31 and went straight on to dominate Ski Classics.

Meaning: in my eyes are the Ski Classics definitively the B-Scene, but they do have good PR and it is fascinating to see how for example Myhlbäck seems to be of the opinion that Ski Classics is equally prestigious as the World Cup.

Martin Johnsrud Sundby won one Ski Classic, Theresa J also. None of the WC sprint specialists can win, and also those who are better at skate. Astrid Slind started with Ski Classics..so some of the top WC athletes could win, but definitely not most of them.

 

[Squire]

Aside from the Olympics. Why don't they do what other sports in general do - have private sponsorship for athletes and or private teams? Why is the normal season through national teams in winter sports - it's so weird??

Skiing was never really a professional sport, so that structure never developed. Proper international season-long competition didn't really start until the 70s and 80s (FIS World Cup since 1981). Until then it was mostly an Olympic sport and there was also the annual world championships. Most competitors, at least among the Norwegians, were forest workers. Even now there's not much money in it, especially not in the even more niche things like nordic combined. I guess the Norwegian national team have decent sponsorship money, but not many other nations have a population-wide market for skiing related things. Most Norwegian families will at least buy a few pairs of skis for their kids throughout their childhood, so there's a bit of sponsorship incentive here.

 

[AmRacer]

Skiing was never really a professional sport, so that structure never developed. Proper international season-long competition didn't really start until the 70s and 80s (FIS World Cup since 1981). Until then it was mostly an Olympic sport and there was also the annual world championships. Most competitors, at least among the Norwegians, were forest workers. Even now there's not much money in it, especially not in the even more niche things like nordic combined. I guess the Norwegian national team have decent sponsorship money, but not many other nations have a population-wide market for skiing related things. Most Norwegian families will at least buy a few pairs of skis for their kids throughout their childhood, so there's a bit of sponsorship incentive here.

Most Norwegians have easy snow access the whole winter, that's not the case for any other country.

 

[Squire]

Most Norwegians have easy snow access the whole winter, that's not the case for any other country.

It's the case for the Finns as well, and Sweden to a large degree. But Finland have never really recovered from the Lahti scandal in 2001 for some reason.

 

[AmRacer]

It's the case for the Finns as well, and Sweden to a large degree. But Finland have never really recovered from the Lahti scandal in 2001 for some reason.

No, it's not the same. Nobody lives where it's snow in Sweden and Finland, most winters.

 

[esp123]

Two of the biggest cities in Norway (Oslo and Trondheim) have really easy snow access during the winter.

In Oslo there are in total 2600 km ski tracks available for everyone.

And most kids learn cross country skiing at a really young age.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Martin Johnsrud Sundby won one Ski Classic, Theresa J also. None of the WC sprint specialists can win, and also those who are better at skate. Astrid Slind started with Ski Classics..so some of the top WC athletes could win, but definitely not most of them.

Do you even believe yourself that you know what you are talking about here?

Let's start with Astrid Øyre Slind, which you claim "started with Ski Classics". As far as I know she started doing Ski Classics in the 2016 season, at the age around 27 and went went top 7 in Marcialonga, Vasaloppet and Birken on first attempt. Long before that she had already done 20+ World Cup starts and was U23 World Champion. She only switched to Ski Classics after stagnating and doing a couple of season on the Scandinavian Cup scene.

Sundby and Johaug have "only" won Birken because it is the only one they did a couple of times when in their prime. Both won with huge margins at the end of long WC seasons. Sundby's "attempt" in the Ski Classic scene in 2022 as a 37 year old with massive back issues doesnt hold much negative weight in my opinion.

When you say that "None of the WC sprint specialists can win" it also clearly shows that you dont know much about the history of Ski Classics in the last 10-15 years and that WC Sprinters are very well suited to transform into good Ski Classics athletes.
John Kristian Dahl was a great World Cup sprinter for almost 10 years, with several World Cup wins and podiums. When he didnt qualify for the National Team no more he changed to Ski Classics and won Vasaloppet 3 times. Johan Kjölstad was also for a long time a member of the Norwegian Sprint team with Dahl, with World Champs silver in 2009. When he got dropped for the National Team he changed to Ski Classics and won the Ski Classics overall in 2014. Andreas Nygaard is maybe the most legendary Ski Classics athlete. He was for a long time a warrior on the Scan Cup level, with some good sprint results and even managed to qualify for a World Cup in classic sprint. Then he went from being a mediocre sprinter at national level to legend in Ski Classics. One of the better Ski Classics athletes nowaday, the Marcialonga winner of this season is Kasper Stadaas. He was for many years a pure sprint specialist, just outside national team level and managed to qualify for cirka 15 World Cup sprints. After transitioning into the Ski Classics scene he's shown once again that the skill set needed for World Cup sprints are very compatible with the skill set needed for long races double poling.

With the history of athletes like Dahl, Kjölstad and Stadaas I belive when looking at the World Cup Overall in the sprint cup on the mens side for this season that maybe 15 of the top 20 could quite easily translate into top Ski Classics skiers within 1 season of specific focus. Im thinking Kläbo, Valnes, Vike, Heggen, Anger, Chappaz, Grahn, Amundsen, Ogden, Schumacher are the obvious picks. But also Evensen, Even Northug, Joni Mäki, Emil Liekari and Ondrej Cerny should fit the bill. Stadaas and Kjölstad are prime examples that the lack of endurance that made then pure sprint specialists at WC level isnt a problem at Ski Classics level.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Two of the biggest cities in Norway (Oslo and Trondheim) have really easy snow access during the winter.

In Oslo there are in total 2600 km ski tracks available for everyone.

And most kids learn cross country skiing at a really young age.

The Oslo thing should make them even more dominant, because in the rest of the world Biathlon arenas are pretty much in small lateral valleys in the middle of nowhere.

As much as the Herring boys don't want to hear it, Russia also being a top xc skiing nation is just natural, if you look at their talent pool.

 

[kingjr]

With the history of athletes like Dahl, Kjölstad and Stadaas I belive when looking at the World Cup Overall in the sprint cup on the mens side for this season that maybe 15 of the top 20 could quite easily translate into top Ski Classics skiers within 1 season of specific focus. Im thinking Kläbo, Valnes, Vike, Heggen, Anger, Chappaz, Grahn, Amundsen, Ogden, Schumacher are the obvious picks. But also Evensen, Even Northug, Joni Mäki, Emil Liekari and Ondrej Cerny should fit the bill. Stadaas and Kjölstad are prime examples that the lack of endurance that made then pure sprint specialists at WC level isnt a problem at Ski Classics level.

No love for Pellegrino?

 

[Mayomaniac]

No love for Pellegrino?

Honestly, Pellegrino is a good 10cm shorter than the typical good double poler and gets wrecked in long double poling sections in distance races.
The overall training is different, but give the fact that sprinters often already have the highest volume of dp training and are some of the most powerful dpers, they seem to adapt the fastest.
Strictly looking at the route Vasaloppet is also nothing special...

 

[AmRacer]

Honestly, Pellegrino is a good 10cm shorter than the typical good double poler and gets wrecked in long double poling sections in distance races.
The overall training is different, but give the fact that sprinters often already have the highest volume of dp training and are some of the most powerful dpers, they seem to adapt the fastest.
Strictly looking at the route Vasaloppet is also nothing special...

The distance is what makes it special, it's like a bike race.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Oslo thing should make them even more dominant, because in the rest of the world Biathlon arenas are pretty much in small lateral valleys in the middle of nowhere.

While very true for Central Europe (probably the biggest urban centre with a biathlon venue right on hand would be Garmisch-Partenkirchen for which Kaltenbrunn - not an international venue but very much a talent factory - is only a couple of kilometres away, and that's about 25k population), the further north and east you go, and the less reliant on altitude you become for snow, the more you see venues attached to reasonably sized urban centres. Obviously the likes of Östersund and Joensuu are nothing like the size of Oslo, but in Russia there are places like Ekaterinburg, Izhevsk, Ufa and Krasnoyarsk which have their own biathlon venues inside their urban sprawl, and Toksovo/Kavgolovo is only a couple of stops from St Petersburg on the train. Tyumen', strangely, though, is quite a long way from town. Valcartier is probably the only North American equivalent, being very accessible from Quebec City, or at least it would be if it wasn't on a military base.

 

[Mayomaniac]

While very true for Central Europe (probably the biggest urban centre with a biathlon venue right on hand would be Garmisch-Partenkirchen for which Kaltenbrunn - not an international venue but very much a talent factory - is only a couple of kilometres away, and that's about 25k population), the further north and east you go, and the less reliant on altitude you become for snow, the more you see venues attached to reasonably sized urban centres. Obviously the likes of Östersund and Joensuu are nothing like the size of Oslo, but in Russia there are places like Ekaterinburg, Izhevsk, Ufa and Krasnoyarsk which have their own biathlon venues inside their urban sprawl, and Toksovo/Kavgolovo is only a couple of stops from St Petersburg on the train. Tyumen', strangely, though, is quite a long way from town. Valcartier is probably the only North American equivalent, being very accessible from Quebec City, or at least it would be if it wasn't on a military base.

True, I was mainly talking about Central Europe, the Biathlon talent pool here is almost comically small, yet it's able to go toe to toe with Norway, which has Oslo behind it. I had left Russia out for a reason, but you have a point when it comes to Sweden and Finnland.

 

[Squire]

The Oslo thing should make them even more dominant, because in the rest of the world Biathlon arenas are pretty much in small lateral valleys in the middle of nowhere.

Oslo is extremely under-represented in elite Norwegian winter sports though, when looking at population size. The Oslo kids have too much else to do. Most elite skiers are from smaller places, usually elsewhere in the South Eastern inland region or from Trøndelag but there are of course elite athletes from pretty much all over the country. F.ex. the elite sports high schools for cross country-skiing and biathlon are located in Geilo, Lillehammer and Tromsø, and not in Oslo.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oslo is extremely under-represented in elite Norwegian winter sports though, when looking at population size. The Oslo kids have too much else to do. Most elite skiers are from smaller places, usually elsewhere in the South Eastern inland region or from Trøndelag but there are of course elite athletes from pretty much all over the country. F.ex. the elite sports high schools for cross country-skiing and biathlon are located in Geilo, Lillehammer and Tromsø, and not in Oslo.

The Oslofjord area does however have a fair representation in biathlon. Hanevold, Flatland, the Eckhoff family, Fanny Horn Birkeland, Tandrevold, Lægreid, Dale-Skjevdal, Isak Frey, Strømsheim, the Andersen brothers and the Brun-Lie family are all from around there.

 

[Squire]

The Oslofjord area does however have a fair representation in biathlon. Hanevold, Flatland, the Eckhoff family, Fanny Horn Birkeland, Tandrevold, Lægreid, Dale-Skjevdal, Isak Frey, Strømsheim, the Andersen brothers and the Brun-Lie family are all from around there.

Yes I did mean 'skiers' to include biathletes too. And of course there are quite a number of elite athletes from Oslo, but proportionally it's not very impressive. Was mainly meant as a counter-argument to 'the Oslo thing' being some sort of very specific Norwegian advantage.

 

[Sciatic]

I wonder if the more niche a sport is (not sure if biathlon fits that description) then it is the specific locations/training centers, rather than broad geographic reach, that accounts for a successful national program. For decades, most of the U.S. success in speed skating came from skaters who lived in or trained at a single location: Madison, Wisconsin. https://www.milwaukeemag.com/wisconsin-winter-olympics-records-history/