- May 11, 2013
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Re:
is there anywhere an official statement or tweet out about Zorzoli being cleared? (haven't seen anything)
the choice of words of the CIRC report re: Zorzoli is also highly dubious/biased, calling Rasmussen's claims 'unacceptable' (indeed, that's CIRC shooting the messenger and promoting omerta), and calling Zorzoli a quote "honest scientist" unquote who furthermore is highly regarded among riders and managers.(insert eyebrowraiser)
I wouldn't be surprised if UCI was given free hand to 'edit' the parts in the report that concerned Zorzoli.
is there anywhere an official statement or tweet out about Zorzoli being cleared? (haven't seen anything)
good point.neineinei said:
the choice of words of the CIRC report re: Zorzoli is also highly dubious/biased, calling Rasmussen's claims 'unacceptable' (indeed, that's CIRC shooting the messenger and promoting omerta), and calling Zorzoli a quote "honest scientist" unquote who furthermore is highly regarded among riders and managers.(insert eyebrowraiser)
I wouldn't be surprised if UCI was given free hand to 'edit' the parts in the report that concerned Zorzoli.
- Aug 24, 2011
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http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/uci-sta ... o-zorzoli/
In full:
Following some allegations concerning Dr Mario Zorzoli which arose around the case against Dr Geert Leinders, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) asked Dr Zorzoli not to work on anything related to anti-doping while those allegations were looked into. The Cycling Independent Reform Commission (CIRC), whose mandate and terms of reference covered the period in question, reported that they found no evidence to support the allegations. Our review reached the same conclusion and therefore Dr Zorzoli was asked to resume all his normal duties as UCI Doctor and Scientific Advisor with immediate effect.
In full:
Following some allegations concerning Dr Mario Zorzoli which arose around the case against Dr Geert Leinders, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) asked Dr Zorzoli not to work on anything related to anti-doping while those allegations were looked into. The Cycling Independent Reform Commission (CIRC), whose mandate and terms of reference covered the period in question, reported that they found no evidence to support the allegations. Our review reached the same conclusion and therefore Dr Zorzoli was asked to resume all his normal duties as UCI Doctor and Scientific Advisor with immediate effect.
Zorzoli defending Lance in the SCA trial.
- confirms he was in charge of antidoping and had intimate knowledge of testing procedures and testing results in the years of interest to SCA.
- claims that if Lance had used EPO, they would have found it
- denies that some riders have been given advance notice of testing
- denies post-testing procedures are irregular
- claims malabry and lausanne labs are "entirely independent from UCI"
- claims Armstrong was submitted to "numerous" urine and blood EPO tests and that "all laboratory results were negative".
- states it's "unthinkable that no action would have been undertaken in the case of a laboratory finding of illegal substances"
- claims Lance has never violated any of the antidoping rules or tested positive for any illegal substance.
- confirms that "Mr. Armstrong never showed atypical blood values".
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/C158.pdf
(starting on page 9)
- confirms he was in charge of antidoping and had intimate knowledge of testing procedures and testing results in the years of interest to SCA.
- claims that if Lance had used EPO, they would have found it
- denies that some riders have been given advance notice of testing
- denies post-testing procedures are irregular
- claims malabry and lausanne labs are "entirely independent from UCI"
- claims Armstrong was submitted to "numerous" urine and blood EPO tests and that "all laboratory results were negative".
- states it's "unthinkable that no action would have been undertaken in the case of a laboratory finding of illegal substances"
- claims Lance has never violated any of the antidoping rules or tested positive for any illegal substance.
- confirms that "Mr. Armstrong never showed atypical blood values".
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/C158.pdf
(starting on page 9)
Re: Re:
when Armstrong announced his comeback he knew he wasn't going to test positive.
he wasn't afraid at all of the biopassport.
wonder why.
Benotti69 said:
when Armstrong announced his comeback he knew he wasn't going to test positive.
he wasn't afraid at all of the biopassport.
wonder why.
- May 27, 2010
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Re: Re:
It is a great find. And, it p!sses me off to read it.
With respect to the comeback, however, we know specifically that McQuaid himself broke the rules (allowing Lance to compete early). Not Zorzoli.
Zorzoli is and was a minion. He wasn't asking Lance for Nike watches for his family members or trying to 'save the UCI'. He wasn't editing the Vrijman report, or allowing Lance's lawyer to do so.
If CIRC was all about getting rid of Hein and exposing McQuaid, then why would anyone try and protect Zorzoli if he has all the answers?
Unfortunately, that fails the logic test.
Over the last few weeks we have had a long debate where, hopefully, it has been illustrated that there are plausible explanations and reasonable arguments to cover most of the heinous behavior assigned to Zorzoli.
The above statements that you found and posted wrt Lance are offensive, no doubt. And, it has always been hard to believe that anyone, anywhere could support the obvious fraud at any time. But, they did. Sportsman of the year. Cancer saver (sic). All the way up to the White House (which is NOT a political statement, and further insight suggests that GWB actually may have held a low opinion of his Lanceness).
We live in a world filled with idiots. (also not a political statement)
Dave.
sniper said:
It is a great find. And, it p!sses me off to read it.
With respect to the comeback, however, we know specifically that McQuaid himself broke the rules (allowing Lance to compete early). Not Zorzoli.
Zorzoli is and was a minion. He wasn't asking Lance for Nike watches for his family members or trying to 'save the UCI'. He wasn't editing the Vrijman report, or allowing Lance's lawyer to do so.
If CIRC was all about getting rid of Hein and exposing McQuaid, then why would anyone try and protect Zorzoli if he has all the answers?
Unfortunately, that fails the logic test.
Over the last few weeks we have had a long debate where, hopefully, it has been illustrated that there are plausible explanations and reasonable arguments to cover most of the heinous behavior assigned to Zorzoli.
The above statements that you found and posted wrt Lance are offensive, no doubt. And, it has always been hard to believe that anyone, anywhere could support the obvious fraud at any time. But, they did. Sportsman of the year. Cancer saver (sic). All the way up to the White House (which is NOT a political statement, and further insight suggests that GWB actually may have held a low opinion of his Lanceness).
We live in a world filled with idiots. (also not a political statement)
Dave.
agreed that he is/was probably a minion, a puppet, during the Verbruggen/McQuaid era.
i don't know what he does or doesn't have on Pat/Verbruggen. And tbh i don't know if it matters.
What matters now is that for certain (i assume very conscious) reasons Cookson decided to keep him and is giving him UCI protection, i.e. doesn't want to loose him. That does, admittedly, suggest that Zorzoli was less closely entangled with Verbruggen/Pat than e.g. Schattenberg or Verbiest.
Cookson no doubt knew what he was giving himself by keeping Zorzoli: a direct link to all team managers and somebody willing to bend the rules if necessary to protect the image of cycling.
One obvious guess is he's Cookson's right hand in making sure the high-profile riders don't test positive, and when possible 'regulate' the procedures, e.g. to favor a certain British team, or to disfavor a certain Kazach team.
I wouldn't be surprised if Zoroli's sitting on Froome's pre-Vuelta 2011 blooddata, for instance, or if he has intel on the widespread use of AICAR (hence avoiding Cologne), and such.
i don't know what he does or doesn't have on Pat/Verbruggen. And tbh i don't know if it matters.
What matters now is that for certain (i assume very conscious) reasons Cookson decided to keep him and is giving him UCI protection, i.e. doesn't want to loose him. That does, admittedly, suggest that Zorzoli was less closely entangled with Verbruggen/Pat than e.g. Schattenberg or Verbiest.
Cookson no doubt knew what he was giving himself by keeping Zorzoli: a direct link to all team managers and somebody willing to bend the rules if necessary to protect the image of cycling.
One obvious guess is he's Cookson's right hand in making sure the high-profile riders don't test positive, and when possible 'regulate' the procedures, e.g. to favor a certain British team, or to disfavor a certain Kazach team.
I wouldn't be surprised if Zoroli's sitting on Froome's pre-Vuelta 2011 blooddata, for instance, or if he has intel on the widespread use of AICAR (hence avoiding Cologne), and such.
- May 27, 2010
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Re:
Don't take this the wrong way, but it would be great he is sitting on Froome's data.
That would suggest that there is a possibility, no matter how remote, that it might see the light of day sometime in the future.
Certainly no heroes here, and no win for anyone to keep him in his job. The questions will never go away.
The funny thing is that if he had facilitated dopers, in any way, he could get rich by writing a book about his experiences. He could probably still get rich even if he didn't facilitate, but wrote about all the crazy situations and excuses that he has witnessed.
Maybe he just isn't very smart.
Dave.
sniper said:
Don't take this the wrong way, but it would be great he is sitting on Froome's data.
That would suggest that there is a possibility, no matter how remote, that it might see the light of day sometime in the future.
Certainly no heroes here, and no win for anyone to keep him in his job. The questions will never go away.
The funny thing is that if he had facilitated dopers, in any way, he could get rich by writing a book about his experiences. He could probably still get rich even if he didn't facilitate, but wrote about all the crazy situations and excuses that he has witnessed.
Maybe he just isn't very smart.
Dave.
indeed, McQuaid broke the rules, but did McQuaid have the skills/access to shove Lance's suspicious BP samples from 2009/10 under the table? I'd venture to guess that Zorzoli had at the least a hand in that.
And if Verbruggen/Pat would not have been sure about Zorzoli's loyalty towards Lance, don't you think they would have ousted him permanently in 2006?
When Armstrong decided to come back, everybody with key positions within the UCI must have been 'on board'.
And if Verbruggen/Pat would not have been sure about Zorzoli's loyalty towards Lance, don't you think they would have ousted him permanently in 2006?
When Armstrong decided to come back, everybody with key positions within the UCI must have been 'on board'.
Re: Re:
to be sure, i think Cookson looks extremely bad. Worse than Zorzoli in fact. I tend to agree with you, Zorzoli is/was probably just another guy trying to please as many as he can and, if possible, keep his job while at it.
A minion. But not an easily replaceable one. Cookson desperately needs him to keep a lid on Sky's doping.
that's certainly one way to look at it.D-Queued said:
we're starting to understand each other.
to be sure, i think Cookson looks extremely bad. Worse than Zorzoli in fact. I tend to agree with you, Zorzoli is/was probably just another guy trying to please as many as he can and, if possible, keep his job while at it.
A minion. But not an easily replaceable one. Cookson desperately needs him to keep a lid on Sky's doping.
- May 27, 2010
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Re:
Not trying to explain it away, but the ABP was still getting sorted out, and the best we had at the time was the suspicion index.
Who restricted the budget such that it eliminated the option to test (appropriately) for EPO at the Tour? 'Here's a nickel, go ahead and do all the testing that you can afford with it...'
(I/you/we) Might have to go back and re-read what Ashenden had to say on the matter.
Way back when, Lance was getting away with an enormous fraud and nobody was doing anything about it.
Hein and Pat are still getting away with an enormous fraud. If CIRC didn't nail them we may be out of options. Even if he was at times complicit, Zorzoli is just a speck of dust in a sunbeam.
At least, that is my sense of the relative magnitude.
What about Vrijman? Why doesn't anyone go after him for allowing 'his' report to become a fraud. Isn't he a lawyer? Shouldn't his law society go after him for such an abuse of professional conduct if not outright fraud?
Zorzoli is like hope in Pandora's box. I hope he wasn't to blame, but what about all the injustices and evils of the sport that are still running free?
Dave.
sniper said:
Not trying to explain it away, but the ABP was still getting sorted out, and the best we had at the time was the suspicion index.
Who restricted the budget such that it eliminated the option to test (appropriately) for EPO at the Tour? 'Here's a nickel, go ahead and do all the testing that you can afford with it...'
(I/you/we) Might have to go back and re-read what Ashenden had to say on the matter.
Way back when, Lance was getting away with an enormous fraud and nobody was doing anything about it.
Hein and Pat are still getting away with an enormous fraud. If CIRC didn't nail them we may be out of options. Even if he was at times complicit, Zorzoli is just a speck of dust in a sunbeam.
At least, that is my sense of the relative magnitude.
What about Vrijman? Why doesn't anyone go after him for allowing 'his' report to become a fraud. Isn't he a lawyer? Shouldn't his law society go after him for such an abuse of professional conduct if not outright fraud?
Zorzoli is like hope in Pandora's box. I hope he wasn't to blame, but what about all the injustices and evils of the sport that are still running free?
Dave.
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Actually, strike that comment above.
I like the Pandora's box analogy as all the evil in the world was released.
But, do I really hope Zorzoli wasn't to blame? No. I really don't care about that. I care about the evil, though, and hope that the right focus is placed on the big players..
Dave.
I like the Pandora's box analogy as all the evil in the world was released.
But, do I really hope Zorzoli wasn't to blame? No. I really don't care about that. I care about the evil, though, and hope that the right focus is placed on the big players..
Dave.
- Jul 21, 2012
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Re: Re:
[quote="D-Queued"
Unfortunately, that fails the logic test.......
....We live in a world filled with idiots. (also not a political statement)
Dave.[/quote]
Good post and a lot of other good posts. The facts indicate only one thing - Zorzoli is un-sackable by the current regime. The pain of keeping him is less than the risk of the pain he can inflict if he was sacked. With Cookson leaping to Froome's defence a couple of weeks ago when the Guardian had a go at Froome, central to the case was the position of Zorzoli. Confirming the stories re Leinders and the Chicken by sacking him is the real "can of worms". Mixing metaphors, the dominoes would be falling all the way to Sky Sir Bradley, Sir David and Froome. Cookson needs the lid keeping on that can of worms for Cookson's sake.
[quote="D-Queued"
Unfortunately, that fails the logic test.......
....We live in a world filled with idiots. (also not a political statement)
Dave.[/quote]
Good post and a lot of other good posts. The facts indicate only one thing - Zorzoli is un-sackable by the current regime. The pain of keeping him is less than the risk of the pain he can inflict if he was sacked. With Cookson leaping to Froome's defence a couple of weeks ago when the Guardian had a go at Froome, central to the case was the position of Zorzoli. Confirming the stories re Leinders and the Chicken by sacking him is the real "can of worms". Mixing metaphors, the dominoes would be falling all the way to Sky Sir Bradley, Sir David and Froome. Cookson needs the lid keeping on that can of worms for Cookson's sake.
the sceptic and freddythefrog nailing it.
for those who missed it, Stokes puts Rasmussen's allegations and CIRC's dismissal of the allegations side by side.
He doesn't comment on it, and tbh doesn't need to either, CIRC's wording speaks volumes.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/citin ... n-to-work/
“The CIRC considers it unacceptable and a severe breach of proper procedures that such serious accusations, based on double hearsay, were made public without the individual first being consulted and the allegations being fully investigated,” it stated.
“This is all the more disturbing since this accusation was completely immaterial to the case investigated. In addition, CIRC notes that several interviewees expressed their high regard for Mario Zorzoli, both for his scientific expertise and his honesty.”
"unacceptable", "breech of proper procedures", "disturbing", "immaterial".
To state that the Zorzoli allegations were "immaterial" to the case investigated... WOW.
What about all those Verbruggen/Pat accusations made by Floyd and others in the USADA files? Also immaterial to the case investigated? Where's that sceptic eyebrowraising emoticon when you need it!
ff-ing baffling. That's CIRC promoting omerta right ff-ing there.
Gimme strength.
comment in the comment section:
"...several interviewees expressed their high regard for Mario Zorzoli, both for his scientific expertise and his honesty.” Perhaps they said, "Yeah man, this guy is a scientific genius and he was honest with me, giving me great advice on how to beat the testing. I've never tested positive so give him my highest regards."
for those who missed it, Stokes puts Rasmussen's allegations and CIRC's dismissal of the allegations side by side.
He doesn't comment on it, and tbh doesn't need to either, CIRC's wording speaks volumes.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/03/citin ... n-to-work/
“The CIRC considers it unacceptable and a severe breach of proper procedures that such serious accusations, based on double hearsay, were made public without the individual first being consulted and the allegations being fully investigated,” it stated.
“This is all the more disturbing since this accusation was completely immaterial to the case investigated. In addition, CIRC notes that several interviewees expressed their high regard for Mario Zorzoli, both for his scientific expertise and his honesty.”
"unacceptable", "breech of proper procedures", "disturbing", "immaterial".
To state that the Zorzoli allegations were "immaterial" to the case investigated... WOW.
What about all those Verbruggen/Pat accusations made by Floyd and others in the USADA files? Also immaterial to the case investigated? Where's that sceptic eyebrowraising emoticon when you need it!
ff-ing baffling. That's CIRC promoting omerta right ff-ing there.
Gimme strength.
comment in the comment section:
"...several interviewees expressed their high regard for Mario Zorzoli, both for his scientific expertise and his honesty.” Perhaps they said, "Yeah man, this guy is a scientific genius and he was honest with me, giving me great advice on how to beat the testing. I've never tested positive so give him my highest regards."
Zorzoli really hates dopers.
anno 2015. Zorzoli and Nicolas Terrados (doc at ONCE 1998 EPO scandal, accused by Zulle) both in the editorial committee of the Spanish journal on sports medicine "Archivos de medicina del deporte".
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/culturay ... te_156.pdf
Here (page 7 of the pdf linked below) they are in 2000 side by side in a scientific panel of some conference on sports medicine (where a certain Alfredo Córdova - doc at Kelme, Liberty Seguros - was also speaking):
http://www.femede.es/documentos/boletin33.pdf
anno 2015. Zorzoli and Nicolas Terrados (doc at ONCE 1998 EPO scandal, accused by Zulle) both in the editorial committee of the Spanish journal on sports medicine "Archivos de medicina del deporte".
http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/culturay ... te_156.pdf
Here (page 7 of the pdf linked below) they are in 2000 side by side in a scientific panel of some conference on sports medicine (where a certain Alfredo Córdova - doc at Kelme, Liberty Seguros - was also speaking):
http://www.femede.es/documentos/boletin33.pdf
"The Journal de Dimanche reported last week that proper protocol had not been followed when the UCI gave Froome permission to use the medication. Instead, the newspaper wrote, the authorisation had come from Dr Zorzoli alone.
This is the same guy who, according to Michael Rasmussen, collaborated with Dr Geert Leinders to allow the Dane to remain in the 2005 Tour de France after he showed abnormal blood values. If true, it’s a bit like former CEO Fred Goodwin still working at the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The fallout has been like Kramer vs Kramer on two wheels. Team Sky insist they have done nothing wrong. The UCI say the same. WADA is the concerned uncle, ready to step in if Brian Cookson starts throwing the anniversary china at the wall.
And at the centre of the battle for moral custody of cycling is Chris Froome himself, who would appear to have done nothing worse than ride his bike quite fast when he was possibly too ill to have done so."
http://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/weekly ... -exemption
This is the same guy who, according to Michael Rasmussen, collaborated with Dr Geert Leinders to allow the Dane to remain in the 2005 Tour de France after he showed abnormal blood values. If true, it’s a bit like former CEO Fred Goodwin still working at the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The fallout has been like Kramer vs Kramer on two wheels. Team Sky insist they have done nothing wrong. The UCI say the same. WADA is the concerned uncle, ready to step in if Brian Cookson starts throwing the anniversary china at the wall.
And at the centre of the battle for moral custody of cycling is Chris Froome himself, who would appear to have done nothing worse than ride his bike quite fast when he was possibly too ill to have done so."
http://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/weekly ... -exemption
- Feb 10, 2010
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Re: Re:
You could never work at the UCI with such a lazy attitude.
It seems Zorzoli has some direct method of dictating positive/non-positive. How is that not worth good money to an enterprising DS or athlete that just got "a letter" from the UCI? SHOW ME THE MONEY DAVE!!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Zorzoli could just as well go with whatever direction the winds blow at the UCI. It's a nice way to have a long career pretty much anywhere.
Also, to further this discussion about the UCI in general, per the CIRC report, Management Committee has athlete-level anti-doping results information. How much Cookson knew prior to taking the job, including some crazier results in other threads is wide open to interpretation.
Dave, Dave, Dave..... Sigh...D-Queued said:
You could never work at the UCI with such a lazy attitude.
It seems Zorzoli has some direct method of dictating positive/non-positive. How is that not worth good money to an enterprising DS or athlete that just got "a letter" from the UCI? SHOW ME THE MONEY DAVE!!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Zorzoli could just as well go with whatever direction the winds blow at the UCI. It's a nice way to have a long career pretty much anywhere.
Also, to further this discussion about the UCI in general, per the CIRC report, Management Committee has athlete-level anti-doping results information. How much Cookson knew prior to taking the job, including some crazier results in other threads is wide open to interpretation.
- Feb 10, 2010
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sniper said:
Stokes is supporting my general idea the CIRC report's purpose was to shame Verbruggen out of the UCI for good. We still don't know what Verbruggen's daily involvement is at this point. He can't be fired or retired, so... Another UCI mystery.
The report strikes out at a couple of others, but they are gone at this point.
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