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Both Villella and Bettiol closed the season on a high note, which was surprising to me.
Cannondale as a whole had some good results in the second part of the season. Quite promising, especially with some talented riders being borught in for 2017.
 
Sep 20, 2011
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Cannondale's problem is that for their best riders wins are the hardest to get (monuments and GT's obviously are stacked with class riders) and for races a level below they usually have very average riders. Howes? Wippert? Breschel? Zepuntke? Skujins? Skjerping? Need I say more?
 
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Der Effe said:
Howes? Wippert? Breschel? Zepuntke? Skujins? Skjerping? Need I say more?
I don't know what's wrong with these guys considering the fact they are not supposed to be top10 guys in this team, nothing more than domestiques with occasional free role, maybe apart from Wippert, who happened to become the team's fastest man for flat sprints in theory, but only because of the fact they don't focus on sprints at all and rather spend money on guys who can excel in different terrain. He fully deserved his chance for getting a WT win in 2015, though.

If I was to write down a bunch of equivalent riders of teams like Dimension Data, FDJ, Lotto-Jumbo or Lampre, it certainly wouldn't be any better. In my opinion, it would be even worse in most of the cases. Cannondale has one of the biggest depths among the low budget WT teams, at the cost of guys who could win many races, though. But I like it that way. We have enough of teams with top leaders but not a lot of depth so it's nice to see different approach as it would be boring if everybody tried the same, even if someone would prefer a couple of quality wins combined with being completely invisible in a bunch of other races over that.
 
Sep 20, 2011
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Re: Re:

Anderis said:
Der Effe said:
Howes? Wippert? Breschel? Zepuntke? Skujins? Skjerping? Need I say more?
I don't know what's wrong with these guys considering the fact they are not supposed to be top10 guys in this team, nothing more than domestiques with occasional free role, maybe apart from Wippert, who happened to become the team's fastest man for flat sprints in theory, but only because of the fact they don't focus on sprints at all and rather spend money on guys who can excel in different terrain. He fully deserved his chance for getting a WT win in 2015, though.

If I was to write down a bunch of equivalent riders of teams like Dimension Data, FDJ, Lotto-Jumbo or Lampre, it certainly wouldn't be any better. In my opinion, it would be even worse in most of the cases. Cannondale has one of the biggest depths among the low budget WT teams, at the cost of guys who could win many races, though. But I like it that way. We have enough of teams with top leaders but not a lot of depth so it's nice to see different approach as it would be boring if everybody tried the same, even if someone would prefer a couple of quality wins combined with being completely invisible in a bunch of other races over that.
The point I was trying to make is that their strongest riders aren't exactly the ones who win a lot of races and the ones who could actually deliver in smaller races by being semi-fast aren't good enough to do that either. They have great depth, but lack riders who can finish off a race. That's why they aren't winning that much but still manage to get results.

The teams you mentioned aren't exactly better in terms of depth, but do have at least one guy who wins races for them.
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

I absolutely disagree. There is nothing pathetic in what the team performed like in the last couple of months. Two riders in the top5 in the last monument and two riders in the top10 in the last GT with this budget is quite of an achievement and the winless streak will not last forever.
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

Anderis said:
I absolutely disagree. There is nothing pathetic in what the team performed like in the last couple of months. Two riders in the top5 in the last monument and two riders in the top10 in the last GT with this budget is quite of an achievement and the winless streak will not last forever.
They race for UCI points. Not to win races.
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

EroicaStradeBianche said:
Anderis said:
I absolutely disagree. There is nothing pathetic in what the team performed like in the last couple of months. Two riders in the top5 in the last monument and two riders in the top10 in the last GT with this budget is quite of an achievement and the winless streak will not last forever.
They race for UCI points. Not to win races.
That's piece of ***.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQI2Wl1wJM#t=24m41s
If they raced for UCI points, Bettiol (that's Bettiol, not Uran what the commentator said) wouldn't have attacked here, but sucked wheels and sprinted for safe 3rd of 4th instead.

If they were that keen on points, they would all stick with Uran during the Giro trying to move him up by another place in GC instead of driving the breaks day by day trying to win a stage.

If they raced for UCI points, they would be backing the same guys in all races over and over again, because only 5 best riders count for UCI World Tour Team Ranking. But Cannondale has one of the biggest diversity among WT teams in terms of how many riders scored points.

There's fact that Cannondale stands too well in team rankings to be qualified as a total failure, so there's a need to discredit those results in some way, ya? Because there are not many ways to spin this around, let's say then that they tried more for placing and less for wins than other teams, despite the fact the way they raced in many races doesn't reflect that (and if it was that easy to improve your results this way, why the teams threatened by relegation didn't do the same?).

It seems that some people feel the need to be very vocal in overcriticising others with weak arguments because... I don't know the reason. But I suspect it might be self-appraisal reasons. It's visible not only in this thread or this forum.
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

Anderis said:
EroicaStradeBianche said:
Anderis said:
I absolutely disagree. There is nothing pathetic in what the team performed like in the last couple of months. Two riders in the top5 in the last monument and two riders in the top10 in the last GT with this budget is quite of an achievement and the winless streak will not last forever.
They race for UCI points. Not to win races.
There's fact that Cannondale stands too well in team rankings to be qualified as a total failure, so there's a need to discredit those results in some way, ya? Because there are not many ways to spin this around, let's say then that they tried more for placing and less for wins than other teams, despite the fact the way they raced in many races doesn't reflect that (and if it was that easy to improve your results this way, why the teams threatened by relegation didn't do the same?).
http://www.uci.ch/road/ranking/ That's the UCi WT Teams classification
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

Cannondale is 8th on 18 teams. 17th and 18h we have IAM (won stages every GT) and DD. They are even over Astana, Trek, AG2R.

Can someone say that cannondale (0 World Tour victory; 1 podium (3rd) in the monuments/grand tours) has had a better season based on this ridiculous classification which has nothing to do with proper cycling?
Astana, it's true they hadn't the best season, had only one top ten in the Grand Tours: but was their season really worse than cannondale? Or maybe they raced for victory instead of points.
Sky did only two top 10s in the grand tours according to this way of thinking

IAM which has half the quality of Cannondale in the roster managed to win stages everywhere. Look at the roster. Cannondale has a superion roster on every aspects to IAM but still IAM raced like proud lions without giving nothing about the useless WT classification and they delivered great cycling and emotions.
Even DD (exluding Cavendish) won at the tour of Britain with Cummings, at the eneco with Boasson. For me the trophy for the worse season in the World Tour should be between Cannondale and DD (considering that DD won and not a few races). So yes considering cannondale's roster and his financial ability their season (outside the fantasy world of WT points) was very very poor. All the teams below Cannondale in WT teams classification with the exception of DD, considering their rosters and budgets, have had better seasons than cannondale.

I mean they have good, hungry riders. Bettiol is young and strong, he attacked to win. Uran made a spectacular end of season but look how they raced in all the grand tours. They always tried only from the break (like all other teams). They never tried to blew up the race in order to win. They never made well planed audacious attacks to win (too risky I suppose). Uran at the Giro? good 6th, well he took the podium already two times, but has he ever tried to attack, to do something? An Action?
Look only recently at Cannondale's vuelta. They tried only from the break. Why not try to win a stage with formolo, preparing a serious action using his position near the top to force the various Quintana/froome/Contador/Chaves to came out and then Talansky taking advantage of that.
Or like Astana tried with LL, they do not won, but they tried. There's an enormous gap in attitude which is visible. Astana's reaction to Rosa 2nd: f*ck. Cannondale instead: very satisfied with Uran 3rd.
I mean Cannondale has a clear crisis of results made laughable by their strong roster. With top 5s and top 10s they can figure in the WT classification but the teams and the riders should try to win. I mean, could they not win a stage at the Tour de Romandie or some races like that?
Moreno Moser has practically declared in a veiled way to an italian newspaper that he's leaving C because he's tired to race for placement and he would like to return to victory
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

I mean, I'm not specifically a "Cannodale hater" (if they exist) I like many Cannondale's riders (like Bettiol for example) and I hope thay will win next season. I do not even prefer Sky or Astana to Cannondale. However this is a team which clearly at a sporting-directors level races to cure the WT Point Classification and not to win races. They are probably not against winning but it's clear that this is not a priority for them because 1 WT victory in two years with the roster they have is a real joke masked by the WT points classification. I'm not sure but are they actually the only wt team which wasn't able to win a single wt race this year?
Look at the names in the roster and think that, except from formolo, any one of them hasn't won a single WT race in two years. you can't say that thay had a good season.
 
I think that you are unfairly assuming that a team that did better in terms of WT points than in terms of wins must have been racing for placings. Which would usually be the case, but I don't think is really true of Cannondale. They have many good riders on their roster but no riders who are regular winners. So they get many placings but few wins, particularly in the biggest races. I don't think that's because they race for WT points. It's because they very often start with the fifth or sixth strongest rider in a race and so get fifth or sixth.

They also have a problem that few of their best riders have a notable finishing kick or killer instinct of a sort that would see them take wins where they aren't necessarily the strongest.
 
Re: Cannondale-Drapac

EroicaStradeBianche said:
Cannondale is 8th on 18 teams. 17th and 18h we have IAM (won stages every GT) and DD. They are even over Astana, Trek, AG2R.

Can someone say that cannondale (0 World Tour victory; 1 podium (3rd) in the monuments/grand tours) has had a better season based on this ridiculous classification which has nothing to do with proper cycling?
Astana, it's true they hadn't the best season, had only one top ten in the Grand Tours: but was their season really worse than cannondale? Or maybe they raced for victory instead of points.
Sky did only two top 10s in the grand tours according to this way of thinking

IAM which has half the quality of Cannondale in the roster managed to win stages everywhere. Look at the roster. Cannondale has a superion roster on every aspects to IAM but still IAM raced like proud lions without giving nothing about the useless WT classification and they delivered great cycling and emotions.
Even DD (exluding Cavendish) won at the tour of Britain with Cummings, at the eneco with Boasson. For me the trophy for the worse season in the World Tour should be between Cannondale and DD (considering that DD won and not a few races). So yes considering cannondale's roster and his financial ability their season (outside the fantasy world of WT points) was very very poor. All the teams below Cannondale in WT teams classification with the exception of DD, considering their rosters and budgets, have had better seasons than cannondale.

I mean they have good, hungry riders. Bettiol is young and strong, he attacked to win. Uran made a spectacular end of season but look how they raced in all the grand tours. They always tried only from the break (like all other teams). They never tried to blew up the race in order to win. They never made well planed audacious attacks to win (too risky I suppose). Uran at the Giro? good 6th, well he took the podium already two times, but has he ever tried to attack, to do something? An Action?
Look only recently at Cannondale's vuelta. They tried only from the break. Why not try to win a stage with formolo, preparing a serious action using his position near the top to force the various Quintana/froome/Contador/Chaves to came out and then Talansky taking advantage of that.
Or like Astana tried with LL, they do not won, but they tried. There's an enormous gap in attitude which is visible. Astana's reaction to Rosa 2nd: f*ck. Cannondale instead: very satisfied with Uran 3rd.
I mean Cannondale has a clear crisis of results made laughable by their strong roster. With top 5s and top 10s they can figure in the WT classification but the teams and the riders should try to win. I mean, could they not win a stage at the Tour de Romandie or some races like that?
Moreno Moser has practically declared in a veiled way to an italian newspaper that he's leaving C because he's tired to race for placement and he would like to return to victory
I'm not arguing about Cannondale having better season than anyone. It's hard reach an agreement here. I acknowledge the fact that such a long winless streak at WT level is somewhat embarassing (I've complained about it myself a couple of times) but I sometimes feel it's blown out of proportion and people read way too much from it.

Well, that part about Moser is interesting, because I really struggle to recall any race this year where he could be forced to race for placing instead of the win. He was free stagehunting in the Giro and he screwed that stage where he didn't pay enough of attention to Trentin himself (he removed his earphone so the team couldn't tell him). He's also had his chance during the Vuelta and I don't recall other races where he could be compromised. But maybe there's something behind the scenes I was not aware of. Maybe the Formigal stage where he was pulling for Formolo instead of saving energy for potential stage win? Well, his new team pulled for Scarponi on the very same stage to protect 9th overall, I'm not sure if he will be better at his new team if it was really about that. And I think his future was already decided by that point?

It's also easy to point out that someone could have done more here and there. You could do the same for any team apart from 2-3 in pretty much any given race. Uran didn't try more in the Giro because he was struggling with ilness in mid-race. They were so close many times this season that a bit of luck could cause we would be talking about entirerly different season. If we recall that Giro stage where Moser lost with Trentin, Uran's attack in Quebec where he was caught in the last 100 meters, Plouay, Lombardia and a couple of others, then I think it's really harsh luck on Cannondale to get 0 wins out of those. Nothing more than harsh luck, because they didn't lose these races by playing conservative or by lacking strength or whatever. They just lacked than tiny bit of luck every time. I believe it's down to probability and if we were able to "re-simulate" this season again and again, Cannondale would be getting at least one WT win in 9 out of 10 cases. They even got one last year, which was much worse than this year in terms of actually being in the mix of the best in particular WT events.

It's true they might have raced Vuelta a bit conservatively (but not extremely conservatively, Formolo made it to the first part of the split on Formigal stage after all) because they weren't entirerly safe from relegation at that point, but over the rest of the season I really struggle to see how their approach was any significantly different from a couple of other teams who pretty much relied on being in the right break at the right time for most if not all of their WT wins and that's always highly circumstancial. I can't see where for example IAM took more risk than Cannondale. Their biggest win is Plouay and it was from the very same move that Cannondale was in and Naesen just beat Bettiol head to head. All of their GT wins were either taken by a quickish guy or from an early breakaway. Not any other than Cannondale tried. The same goes with Lampre, FDJ or most of other bottom half WT teams. None of them took any significant risk of losing a good haul of WT points in the process of hunting for wins. They either went for an early break or just had the strongest rider at the end of the race to win after sprint/punchy attack.
Also Vaughter's team historically often went for wins instead of placing, Dan Martin's stage in in TdF 2013 or Dauphine 2014 are good examples. But an opportunity has to arise and this year it wasn't that many of them.

Also call WT ranking what you what, but it was kinda important this season when it was to decide who would get a WT license for next year. There's no way any team who wasn't safe after first part of the season completely ignored it, maybe apart from IAM who didn't care as they were no longer to exist in 2017. The fact that Cannondale heavily outscored those bottom-half WT teams in the 2nd part of the season doesn't mean those teams would took any more risk if they were in the same position. It was just because of the fact Cannondale has more depth than those teams, but not guys with skillset that would allow to take them frequent wins at high level.
 
Oct 10, 2015
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Re: Re:

claude cat said:
swuzzlebubble said:
claude cat said:
Brendan Canty Article

From D Grade in 2013 to WT in 2017
D grade at Hawthorn crits isn't that easy
For sure, the teardrop is a tough circuit, and there's lots of good riders!
I wouldn't say that, sure a good portion know how to get around the teardrop but I would say it's filled with that much quality from A through to D :D

If you ask me it was this ride that showed that BC had what it takes to make it all the way to the WT http://theclimbingcyclist.com/crux-the-triple-crucifix-a-hells-500-epic/
 
Re: Re:

StryderHells said:
claude cat said:
swuzzlebubble said:
claude cat said:
Brendan Canty Article

From D Grade in 2013 to WT in 2017
D grade at Hawthorn crits isn't that easy
For sure, the teardrop is a tough circuit, and there's lots of good riders!
I wouldn't say that, sure a good portion know how to get around the teardrop but I would say it's filled with that much quality from A through to D :D

If you ask me it was this ride that showed that BC had what it takes to make it all the way to the WT http://theclimbingcyclist.com/crux-the-triple-crucifix-a-hells-500-epic/
Solid effort. Usually once around the Crucifix is enough for me!
 
I can only speculate but Vaughters said that hilly classics will be more of a target for Uran in 2017. I think that means he will try to peak for Ardennes and so on. I would imagine it's easier to implement the Tour rarther than the Giro to a season built around hilly classics. But you never know. Giro is the only GT in which Uran has ever done something.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Re:

Anderis said:
I can only speculate but Vaughters said that hilly classics will be more of a target for Uran in 2017. I think that means he will try to peak for Ardennes and so on. I would imagine it's easier to implement the Tour rarther than the Giro to a season built around hilly classics. But you never know. Giro is the only GT in which Uran has ever done something.
I'd love to see him on a Rui Costa like schedule with many hilly one day races and one week stage races and the Tour as the only gt, that would probably be the best schedule for him.
With the 2 ITTs the Giro could suit Talansky, but I don't think that he'll actually ride the Giro.
 

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