EPO guinea pigs

[rynony]

Anyone else come across this?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/calls-for-epo-guinea-pigs/story-e6frf9if-1225770414773

Know somebody that applied?

Does this pose an ethical dilemma for any amateur cyclists?

 

[LastRide]

Anyone else come across this?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/calls-for-epo-guinea-pigs/story-e6frf9if-1225770414773

Know somebody that applied?

Does this pose an ethical dilemma for any amateur cyclists?

Already been done in Australia at the AIS in Canberra. I think they used the sample to help get the urine test for EPO.

None of the athletes were allowed to race on it but man they turned it up on a few bunch rides.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Already been done in Australia at the AIS in Canberra. I think they used the sample to help get the urine test for EPO.

None of the athletes were allowed to race on it but man they turned it up on a few bunch rides.

There were 2 AIS studies one in 1999 and another early in 2000. They were for the first gen EPO blood test. I was a subject in both studies and was in the EPO group both times. I was mainly riding mtb at that time, but yeah, needless to say, my training buddies knew I was in the EPO group and not the placebo!

Everyone had to sign a waiver stating that they wouldn't race during the study or for 4wks afterwards.

 

[rgmerk]

I don't think there's any ethical dilemma at all.

If you're not competing, you're not cheating - indeed, you're helping provide data that will help prevent cheating in the future.

That said, I imagine it would be an interesting, but rather frustrating experience. interesting, because you'd be able to actually know what it's like to ride doped and experience the difference. Frustrating, because for somebody who is already near their maximum undoped performance levels, you'd know that you're never going to be able to ride this fast when it matters.

 

[blackcat]

any viagra studies going? Those Gerolsteiners were on it in 2008? Gimme some of that action

 

[Anonymous]

any viagra studies going? Those Gerolsteiners were on it in 2008? Gimme some of that action

Yea, but you are not allowed to compete, you just have to look at it...

 

[Anonymous]

Yea, but you are not allowed to compete, you just have to look at it...

Nice!! With my luck I'd wind up with priapism...

 

[Race Radio]

Anyone else come across this?
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/calls-for-epo-guinea-pigs/story-e6frf9if-1225770414773

Know somebody that applied?

Does this pose an ethical dilemma for any amateur cyclists?

I mentioned this new study in another thread a few days ago. One of the key parts of the study is they want to have well trained athletes. Each rider has to have a Vo2 Max of at least 55. They will be doing a comprehensive study that is not only looking at changes in blood parameters but performance as well.

 

[the big ring]

There were 2 AIS studies one in 1999 and another early in 2000. They were for the first gen EPO blood test. I was a subject in both studies and was in the EPO group both times. I was mainly riding mtb at that time, but yeah, needless to say, my training buddies knew I was in the EPO group and not the placebo!

Everyone had to sign a waiver stating that they wouldn't race during the study or for 4wks afterwards.

Have not heard of any waivers being signed this time around...

 

[Escarabajo]

...

That said, I imagine it would be an interesting, but rather frustrating experience. interesting, because you'd be able to actually know what it's like to ride doped and experience the difference. Frustrating, because for somebody who is already near their maximum undoped performance levels, you'd know that you're never going to be able to ride this fast when it matters.

+1.

I'll hope they don't take it the wrong way later.

 

[Anonymous]

Nice!! With my luck I'd wind up with priapism...

"If you experience an erection lasting longer than 4 hours, let your wife know and then seek medical attention a couple of hours later."

 

[stephens]

I'd sign up for that in a second. I'm in my 40s and don't race (well, might race 'cross this year). It'd be nice to know what I could ride like with a normal hematocrit - mine is 35 now and so far they don't know why (all usual suspects test out as "normal"). I'd love to boost that baby up to the average male level of 46 and see how much easier it is for me to climb!

 

[egtalbot]

I mentioned this new study in another thread a few days ago. One of the key parts of the study is they want to have well trained athletes. Each rider has to have a Vo2 Max of at least 55. They will be doing a comprehensive study that is not only looking at changes in blood parameters but performance as well.

Definitely interesting but 55 is a rather pedestrian VO2 max level if we're trying to examine doping in high level cycling. I would not expect you could get great information about pro cyclists unless most of the riders are approaching 70 ml/kg/min.

 

[amp300]

If you haven't read this, take the time.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

I think i have seen it mentioned on the boards before, but it talks about a guy who takes performance enhancing drugs (epo included) for 8 months and discusses his experience.

 

[rgmerk]

Definitely interesting but 55 is a rather pedestrian VO2 max level if we're trying to examine doping in high level cycling. I would not expect you could get great information about pro cyclists unless most of the riders are approaching 70 ml/kg/min.

I imagine that the people doing the study are aware of this issue.

As noted earlier on the thread, there are previous studies of the effects of EPO use; perhaps they were done on some strong athletes and it turns out that the stuff that they're interested in for this study changes similarly in in normal humans as it does in elite athletes.

If you wanted stronger athletes, one source of volunteers for this study might be recently retired pro Aussie Rules players; it, more than any other football code, is an endurance sport. I've heard that the occasional footballer turns up in some of the faster bunch rides around Melbourne during their off-season, and at least one did a summer crit season and quickly got himself into A grade.

 

[Escarabajo]

If you haven't read this, take the time.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

I think i have seen it mentioned on the boards before, but it talks about a guy who takes performance enhancing drugs (epo included) for 8 months and discusses his experience.

Nice reading. It has been posted at least a couple of times, but it necer gets old.

 

[Escarabajo]

Definitely interesting but 55 is a rather pedestrian VO2 max level if we're trying to examine doping in high level cycling. I would not expect you could get great information about pro cyclists unless most of the riders are approaching 70 ml/kg/min.

True but:

1- Maybe the guys on the upper values VO2 max are already racing. There is a reason for it.
2- The study seems to focus on the blood profile changes more than the EPO gain. Of cousrse they always want to see the boost from microdosing but I am sure at this point it is more important to study the blood changes with microdosing.

 

[Race Radio]

Definitely interesting but 55 is a rather pedestrian VO2 max level if we're trying to examine doping in high level cycling. I would not expect you could get great information about pro cyclists unless most of the riders are approaching 70 ml/kg/min.

Agreed. I think perhaps by setting some kind of baseline they were letting prospective applicants that know they are not looking for average joes.

In the French study they said they used "fit" cyclist. In reality they used a group of former elite riders who no longer race the FFC races but the Cycospotif circuit.You can imagine if you are a pretty good Sportif rider and you suddenly get a 50% increase Time to exhaustion.....he was likely the envy of all his friends.

 

[nononsense]

Be careful guinea pigs

Having worked producing these drugs I would be very cautious submitting yourself to such trials. Amgen's EPO and newer versions of these (Aranesp, and Roche's Mircera) are being dose-restricted by the FDA to certain patients (renal dialysis) because of clinical trials showing high risk in promoting tumors. The FDA has place these drugs under high scrutiny and requested black box warnings on them. So, fellow cyclists stay clean and healthy and get informed before making a stupid decision.

 

[Cobblestones]

Having worked producing these drugs I would be very cautious submitting yourself to such trials. Amgen's EPO and newer versions of these (Aranesp, and Roche's Mircera) are being dose-restricted by the FDA to certain patients (renal dialysis) because of clinical trials showing high risk in promoting tumors. The FDA has place these drugs under high scrutiny and requested black box warnings on them. So, fellow cyclists stay clean and healthy and get informed before making a stupid decision.

+1

I'm surprised they got the study through their ethics committee, actually.

 

[350Watts]

I'd sign up for that in a second. I'm in my 40s and don't race (well, might race 'cross this year). It'd be nice to know what I could ride like with a normal hematocrit - mine is 35 now and so far they don't know why (all usual suspects test out as "normal"). I'd love to boost that baby up to the average male level of 46 and see how much easier it is for me to climb!

Not worth the health risks just to see how you would perform.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Much as I would be loathed to do it, if I lived in the area I would feel compelled to offer myself up for research purposes. Anything for the betterment of science. It's a grim job but somebody has to do it.

 

[Martinello]

Epo carcinogenic?

As far as I recall the FDA warning on epo was issued on the basis on a study on Head-and-neck tumours showing a increased risk of failure of the external beam radiation in the epo-group vs. the controls (subjects were given epo during ebr to counter radiation induced anaemia).

This progressed into another FDA-warning on the use of epo for patients with widespread cancer disease. It was customary to administer epo to these patients as they would typically be anaemic as a result of increased haemolysis or red bone marrow displacement. It turned out that these patients fared worse than the patients treated with regular blood transfusions. Epo could, apart from raising the hct, also induce increased microvessel density in tumours (both increasing tumour oxygenitation) or act as a growth factor in tumours but this is a bit speculative. Epo-receptors may be wide spread in the human body, studies on the cognitive changes induced by epo have been done. The most likely conclusion on that matter is that epo somehow induces mythomanic tendencies

Saying that epo is carcinogenic in persons with no pre-existing cancer is (to my knowledge) unsubstantiated. Time will tell if we get a huge spike of cancers in 'previously healthy former elite athletes' in 20-30 years time.

Meanwhile, I'm keeping an eye open for the cancer statistics in the NBA and NFL - all that hgh has to kick start a significant amount of tumours - but perhaps that'll be masked by the increased amount of untimely sudden cardiac deaths caused by the 'roids and recreational drugs.

 

[stephens]

Not worth the health risks just to see how you would perform.

I think you missed something. I wouldn't be doing it "just" to see how I would perform: I'd be doing it so I can lead a long and healthy life in which my cells get enough oxygen.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Definitely interesting but 55 is a rather pedestrian VO2 max level if we're trying to examine doping in high level cycling. I would not expect you could get great information about pro cyclists unless most of the riders are approaching 70 ml/kg/min.

If you make the threshold too high then you risk not aquiring enough subjects. Yes, 55 is low, but there are plenty of solid performers around in the 60s and what is more important is whether or not the subjects are well trained. well trained = plateau in VO2max. No point testing subjects that show an increase in VO2max just because they start training. Besides, the threshold was the same for the earlier studies conducted in 1999 and 2000 and results from those studies basically led to the end of the free reign of EPO use during competition, so the information may not be completely useless.

I'm not exactly sure what this new study will be examining but the fact it is being conducted in Australia suggests that Micheal Ashenden is involved which means he will likely be continuing his work in the area of PAXgene technology.

studies on the cognitive changes induced by epo have been done

this is very interesting. After the study in 1999 one of my friends (in the study) said he noticed behavioural effects. I didn't notice anything myself and 10yrs on, I highly doubt that any long lasting cognitive effect occurred. nevertheless, I did some research and found that as you stated, there are indeed EPO receptors in the CNS. However, i think it would be safe to say that any effect on cognitive function will be very subtle indeed.