EPO is apparently useless

[Dekker_Tifosi]

New research on EPO: No effect (!)

http://nos.nl/artikel/2112162-nederlandse-amateurwielrenners-testen-epo-op-de-mont-ventoux.html

they tested a group of 48 well trained amateurs, half of them got EPO, half of them a placebo. The placebo group went faster, the EPO group even went 30s slower on theVentoux than before.

Conclusion of the researchers: EPO works for kidney patiënts and badly trained cyclists. Not for well trained professionals.

 

[Brullnux]

Anomaly of a study IMO

Many, many others document an increase in performance.

 

[The Hitch]

I read the google translate of that and it suggested that the study hasn't been completed. If it has and they really have concluded that EPO doesn't work, I would ask how they administered it. If you give the athlete EPO on the day, it might not be the same as if you actually gave half of them 3 weeks of training with EPO, and the other half three weeks of training with a placebo.

 

[jmdirt]

I'll wait for the peer reviews on this one...

BUT, if it turns out to be true, Armstrong won those TdFs without an advantage! O F, that will be a fun crap storm to watch!

 

[The Hitch]

Armstrong, and all the others were still using boat loads of other drugs. Not that it matters, since no way, given all we know about Mr 60% riis, and the entire recent history of cycling, does EPO turn out to not be a superdrug

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Armstrong, and all the others were still using boat loads of other drugs. Not that it matters, since no way, given all we know about Mr 60% riis, and the entire recent history of cycling, does EPO turn out to not be a superdrug

I suspect that this research will turn out to be BS, but the claim with LA was that he got a greater benefit than others because of the way his body responded, because he had a lower starting htc, etc. IMO, your opening statement is correct, but that's not the point here.

 

[Red Rick]

It was on the Dutch news today, and it explicitly said that the numbers still weren't out. Edit, tonight they'd come with which group is faster.

Fully expecting crap methodology, but media will be over it so much that everyone who wanted this result get what they want.

Apparently people are too stupid to realise that climbing times went down by minutes when epo tests got better.

 

[Red Rick]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcp.12034/full

The literature review.

I would love to hear their take on why climbing speeds were so much better when there was more EPO in the peloton.

What must Sky think of this

 

[kielbasa]

Re: New research on EPO: No effect (!)

Non-issue, nothing to see here, just a misunderstanding, move along, not a real study. This was done by scientists who needed to pad their resume for IPCC jobs. The question is asked all the time. Can you provide scientific results we ask for? They passed. The question is, who asked for these specific EPO test results?

 

[iejeecee]

Can any of the people who immediately dismiss this research point me to a similar study that definitely proves epo does work on higly trained athlete's?

At the very least it's a intresting premise, and I'm glad someone is making a effort trying to either prove or disprove it. There is far too much speculation about doping and not a lot of facts it seems. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was all one big placebo effect. All that money, time and energy wasted on something that doesn't even work lmao

 

[kielbasa]

Re:

Can any of the people who immediately dismiss this research point me to a similar study that definitely proves epo does work on higly trained athlete's?

At the very least it's a intresting premise, and I'm glad someone is making a effort trying to either prove or disprove it. There is far too much speculation about doping and not a lot of facts it seems. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was all one big placebo effect. All that money, time and energy wasted on something that doesn't even work lmao

You mean... Armstrong was just a phenomenal talent?!

https://youtu.be/cfd2VhQooqY?t=24s

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re:

Can any of the people who immediately dismiss this research point me to a similar study that definitely proves epo does work on higly trained athlete's?

At the very least it's a intresting premise, and I'm glad someone is making a effort trying to either prove or disprove it. There is far too much speculation about doping and not a lot of facts it seems. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was all one big placebo effect. All that money, time and energy wasted on something that doesn't even work lmao

I don't have a link, but one put European and Kenyan trained amatueres on EPO. There was a performance effct, something like 11% over a 3k run. I might be misremembering.

There is a gap in scientific literature about EPO on trained elites (not amatures). But just because there is a gap, doesn't mean elite athletes are suddenly different than the pattern observed in sedintary, recreational, amature, and well trained amatures. The mechanisms are well understood, and there is nothing about being elite that precludes an athlete from benefitting from those mechanisms.

 

[Night Rider]

Re: Re:

Can any of the people who immediately dismiss this research point me to a similar study that definitely proves epo does work on higly trained athlete's?

At the very least it's a intresting premise, and I'm glad someone is making a effort trying to either prove or disprove it. There is far too much speculation about doping and not a lot of facts it seems. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was all one big placebo effect. All that money, time and energy wasted on something that doesn't even work lmao

I don't have a link, but one put European and Kenyan trained amatueres on EPO. There was a performance effct, something like 11% over a 3k run. I might be misremembering.

There is a gap in scientific literature about EPO on trained elites (not amatures). But just because there is a gap, doesn't mean elite athletes are suddenly different than the pattern observed in sedintary, recreational, amature, and well trained amatures. The mechanisms are well understood, and there is nothing about being elite that precludes an athlete from benefitting from those mechanisms.

And there is one linked here but this is an old article http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/the-effect-of-epo-on-performance/

Also search google scholar for a recent australian one and a german one.

 

[Archibald]

Re: New research on EPO: No effect (!)

I remember a study in the 90's that showed steroids were not performance enhancing. It was then qualified that the dosages where only to the limits considering medically safe and not to the amounts commonly used by bodybuilders and other athletes. It also went on to say that the study should not be considered against higher dosages...

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Can any of the people who immediately dismiss this research point me to a similar study that definitely proves epo does work on higly trained athlete's?

At the very least it's a intresting premise, and I'm glad someone is making a effort trying to either prove or disprove it. There is far too much speculation about doping and not a lot of facts it seems. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was all one big placebo effect. All that money, time and energy wasted on something that doesn't even work lmao

I'll restate that I'll let the peer reviews do the eval., but just in basic terms, doesn't more oxygen seem like it would be beneficial for aerobic activities?

The reason there isn't any data on top professionals is because who is going to volunteer for that study? "I'll just throw my career away for the good of the all." If by 'highly trained' you include armature athletes, there is research out there, but you can Google as well as well as anyone else.

As I already posted, I would laugh my ars off if LA won 7 TdFs with no EPO 'advantage'!

 

[Red Rick]

Re: New research on EPO: No effect (!)

I remember a study in the 90's that showed steroids were not performance enhancing. It was then qualified that the dosages where only to the limits considering medically safe and not to the amounts commonly used by bodybuilders and other athletes. It also went on to say that the study should not be considered against higher dosages...

This is huge issue as well. It's not beneficial for the health of the athletes, EPO has known adverse events >>> I doubt the ethical committee for the study allows for the big doses that have been used in the peloton

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Isn't this exactly what Tyler Hamilton said, that he felt worse the first times he used EPO? Until he realised that he could ignore that feeling and just keep going

 

[vedrafjord]

This is why we have meta-analysis of studies, and why reproducibility is so important. You can 'prove' anything with a one-off study: smoking is good for you, vaccines cause autism, a lake in California contains arsenic-based life...

 

[vedrafjord]

Re:

Isn't this exactly what Tyler Hamilton said, that he felt worse the first times he used EPO? Until he realised that he could ignore that feeling and just keep going

No, he said that after doing a blood bag he didn't feel any better, but Riis told him he'd be able to push past where he thought his limit was, so he did, and Riis was right.

 

[42x16ss]

Bjarne Riis, Richard Virenque and Riccardo Ricco would be laughing their ar$es off at the thought of this :lol:

 

[sniper]

It's funny this 'research' comes from the Netherlands.
There was a Dutch PhD Bram Brouwer who quite recently published similar results in his PhD titled "the Myth of the Red Blood Cell", claiming EPO doesn't work. https://www.ou.nl/web/persberichten/home/-/asset_publisher/6fwK/content/promotie%3A-%E2%80%98geen-wetenschappelijk-bewijs-dat-epo-op-hoog-sportief-niveau-werkt%E2%80%99
However, Bram Brouwer has been a professional ice-skating and cycling coach for over 35 years, and his PhD was carried out at a rather dubious (practically unknown) university.
So basically this was the work of a compromised quack with clear conflicts of interest.

 

[sniper]

Re: New research on EPO: No effect (!)

I remember a study in the 90's that showed steroids were not performance enhancing. It was then qualified that the dosages where only to the limits considering medically safe and not to the amounts commonly used by bodybuilders and other athletes. It also went on to say that the study should not be considered against higher dosages...

There were several such studies in the 70s and (early) 80s, too, also wrt blood doping, claiming their effectiveness could not be proven.
Meanwhile the use of both steroids and blood boosting was booming like never before.
Athletes, coaches and sports doctors knew better.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

This is why we have meta-analysis of studies, and why reproducibility is so important. You can 'prove' anything with a one-off study: smoking is good for you, vaccines cause autism, a lake in California contains arsenic-based life...

It all depends on the data and the analysis. Small n studies using crap data that merely look for p<0.05 aren't going to be be convincing evidence. Neither, for that matter, are meta-analyses of such studies.

A large n study with good measurements and careful analysis can be very strong evidence.
-

Is the study in the OP not going to be made available in English?

 

[Benotti69]

I think Doctors Conconi, Cecchini and Ferrari would beg to differ. So would teams Mapei, Once, Banesto, Domo Farm Frites, USPS, Liberty Seguros, Astana, etc etc..........

 

[vedrafjord]

"It's all in your heads, guys"