European Championship 2025: Men’s RR, October 5

[Barkintheeye]

I thought we were comparing Pog with Merckx? Why are you mentioning others now?

Because I believe Pog is as tough and proficient as Merckx ever was and also as tough (and almost as proficient) as some of today's most gritty riders that thrive in mud, rain and adverse conditions.

 

[BubbaChuck]

always remember,harder it is,better for pog.you cant comparae how pog looks on climbs to that era.they would die with him,lol.pog is biological marvel.if any other rider today did his calendar,thye would look like jonas after 2 months.vdp was laready dead after pr.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE. If you look at how McNulty, Wellens, Del Torro... level up after joining. It's clear that they are doing something other teams are not doing. I'm not insinuating it's clinic related, I don't know what it is, but it would be nice if other teams caught up to make it a more even fight. All the Pog fangirls can chose to ignore the elephant in the room of course.

 

[Cycling111]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1975190153263231328

View: https://x.com/LosBrolin/status/1975190153263231328?t=b3sdWwpjQ2sjaAfC0BiWBw&s=19

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Maybe it's more fair to turn it around as well: How much would Pog have won in the days of Merckx, on old steel bikes, bad hotels without airco during the Tour, unfomfortable clothing, having to change your tubulars when flatting during training rides, without altitude camps and sunny winter training stints in southern Spain but only CX and track to keep you fit? Would Pog even have made it into the pro ranks having to fight his way through amateur races where, in those days, GT -focused riders weren't thriving?

Yes he would.

 

[Breh]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE. If you look at how McNulty, Wellens, Del Torro... level up after joining. It's clear that they are doing something other teams are not doing. I'm not insinuating it's clinic related, I don't know what it is, but it would be nice if other teams caught up to make it a more even fight. All the Pog fangirls can chose to ignore the elephant in the room of course.

It hasn't been three years since "the media" were praising how Visma were leading the pack peformance-wise.
Yates is back to winning GT's, they made a GT winner out of Kuss, Campenaerts has been phenomenal, Laporte started winning classics and GT stages, Jorgenson took a huge step forward.

It feels like UAE caught up to Visma and UAE just has more money to spend on better riders cleaning up minor races.


Mcnulty joined in 2020 and his trajectory feels kinda normal to me? His prime years are coming. Atleast what we all used to think of prime years.

 

[The bald fraud]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE.

Something like EC RR Slovenia team with four riders from continental level and two TBV riders who are clearly not climbers?

Actually, if we believe that mou guy, only from 2024 onwards UAE started to perform similar training regimes that were already normal for long in teams like Visma.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Something like EC RR Slovenia team with four riders from continental level and two TBV riders who are clearly not climbers?

Actually, if we believe that mou guy, only from 2024 onwards UAE started to perform similar training regimes that were already normal for long in teams like Visma.

My man, i am not talking about the strength of his teammates, lol. I'm talking about the science/performance department at UAE.

 

[The bald fraud]

My man, i am not talking about the strength of his teammates, lol. I'm talking about the science/performance department at UAE.

As our "prophet" mou pointed out, if Pogacar was not coached by "the bald fraud" but had similar training regimes to Visma (something they already practiced for years), he would not reach his current level only in 2024 when he changed his coach, but years before.

And yes, almost all riders significantly inmprove when they come to Visma.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

My man, i am not talking about the strength of his teammates, lol. I'm talking about the science/performance department at UAE.

I get what you mean but I think Visma had a better performance team than UAE before 2024. Likely UAE is better now.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

As our "prophet" mou pointed out, if Pogacar was not coached by "the bald fraud" but had similar training regimes to Visma (something they already practiced for years), he would not reach his current level only in 2024 when he changed his coach, but years before.

And yes, almost all riders significantly inmprove when they come to Visma.

Yes, that must be why other b/c-tier pros who join UAE suddenly turn into world beaters. Why Tulett who was bossing it at Alpecin has stagnated after going to Visma, why Uijtdebroeks fell off into the deep end after joining Visma. I think it's clear that whatever UAE is doing is a heck of a lot more effective than what Visma is doing. Let alone other teams.

 

[AmRacer]

Yes, that must be why other b/c-tier pros who join UAE suddenly turn into world beaters. Why Tulett who was bossing it at Alpecin has stagnated after going to Visma, why Uijtdebroeks fell off into the deep end after joining Visma. I think it's clear that whatever UAE is doing is a heck of a lot more effective than what Visma is doing. Let alone other teams.

GT
Visma 2 - 1 UAE

 

[Peyroteo94]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE. If you look at how McNulty, Wellens, Del Torro... level up after joining. It's clear that they are doing something other teams are not doing. I'm not insinuating it's clinic related, I don't know what it is, but it would be nice if other teams caught up to make it a more even fight. All the Pog fangirls can chose to ignore the elephant in the room of course.

Pogacar won the TdF and UAE was a joke. Visma is clearly better in my book since they won a Vuelta with Kuss and turned a fisherman in a multiple TdF winner.

 

[Cycling111]

Pogacar won the TdF and UAE was a joke. Visma is clearly better in my book since they won a Vuelta with Kuss and turned a fisherman in a multiple TdF winner.

They are not interested in remembering that.
Aru and Henao had their worst professional years those seasons Pogacar was completely alone during those first years.

Lotto Jumbo 2020 was infinitely superior: Dumoulin: Giro winner, Kuss, Van Aert, Tony Martin, Gesink, Bennet The comparison between that team and what UAE was is simply ridiculous. In 2021 he didn't have a legendary team either but he sentenced the Tour in stage 8 with a solo atack.

I don't even want to think about all the stages that Pogacar could have won with the team that Del Toro has had at his disposal this year, or with the team that Roglic had in that 2020 Tour, if he won 3 in 2019 Vuelta and 3 in 2020 Tour with a shitty team with Fabio Aru and Henao as the "best" climbers on the team being dropped all stages 100 kilometers from the finish

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pogacar won the TdF and UAE was a joke. Visma is clearly better in my book since they won a Vuelta with Kuss and turned a fisherman in a multiple TdF winner.

Visma was better 4 years ago. Not the past 2 seasons. The only reason why Kuss won was because he was allowed in a long break and Vingegaard and Roglic made any opposition of other teams pointless. The fisherman had longtime been heralded as having a huge Vo2Max, long before he won the TDF.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Visma was better 4 years ago. Not the past 2 seasons. The only reason why Kuss won was because he was allowed in a long break and Vingegaard and Roglic made any opposition of other teams pointless. The fisherman had longtime been heralded as having a huge Vo2Max, long before he won the TDF.

Tell me a rider who really performed in UAE except Pogacar in 2019-2021. So Pogacar wasn't in the best team (not even close) for 2 or 3 years.

 

[YavorD]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE. If you look at how McNulty, Wellens, Del Torro... level up after joining. It's clear that they are doing something other teams are not doing. I'm not insinuating it's clinic related, I don't know what it is, but it would be nice if other teams caught up to make it a more even fight. All the Pog fangirls can chose to ignore the elephant in the room of course.

To be honest McNulty and Del Toro have been they obviously talented riders before joining UAE. Wellens, okay, he seemed a bit past it, but he was a quality rider as well.
You make it look like they took someone like Froome or Cheng Ji and turned them into a world beater, when they simply ly have the money to attract talented riders, whom naturally get results.

 

[Cycling111]

The differences in the Le Grand-Bornand stage in 2021

4	Pogačar Tadej	UAE Team Emirates	15	40	5″	0:49
10	Vingegaard Jonas	Team Jumbo-Visma		10		4:09
11	Lutsenko Alexey	Astana - Premier Tech		8		,,
12	Mas Enric	Movistar Team		6		,,
13	Carapaz Richard	INEOS Grenadiers		4		,,
14	Urán Rigoberto	EF Education - Nippo		2		,,
15	Gaudu David	Groupama - FDJ		1		,,
16	Bilbao Pello	Bahrain - Victorious				,,
17	Kelderman Wilco	BORA - hansgrohe				,,
18	O'Connor Ben	AG2R Citroën Team				,,

 

[Cycling111]

Tell me a rider who really performed in UAE except Pogacar in 2019-2021. So Pogacar wasn't in the best team (not even close) for 2 or 3 years.

In fact, Jumbo had Dumoulin, a Giro winner, as a domestique.

UAE has been disastrous those years. Henao wasn't even kept on the team due to his poor performance. Aru was brought for the 2020 Tour but he retided.

The comparison is absurd, there were stages where Pogacar was alone with Roglic, Kuss, Dumoulin, Bennett, Van Aert several kilometers from the end .
Landa spent more time with Remco last year than any of Pogacar's teammates in the 2020 Tour.

 

[tigabara]

You don't have to imagine Pog in the 1960s. Just imagine Pog at any other team than UAE. If you look at how McNulty, Wellens, Del Torro... level up after joining. It's clear that they are doing something other teams are not doing. I'm not insinuating it's clinic related, I don't know what it is, but it would be nice if other teams caught up to make it a more even fight. All the Pog fangirls can chose to ignore the elephant in the room of course.

There is proverb: you see what you want to see. ..

 

[Peyroteo94]

You also thought for a year that Vingegaard would be close to Pogacar this Tour. You seem to be stuck in the past constantly.

Even in the Vuelta, they were still the best team even though Vingegaard beat Almeida, which was expected because he's the better rider, its incredible to have to explain it just cause some people are afraid it minimize Pogacar which it obv dont. Without their kingpin even present, and thereby essentially fielding a B team, they broke the Vuelta record for most stage wins in the history, won the mountain jersey, the team classification, and finished second overall to Vingegaard a supreme GT rider. I don't think you're measuring it objectively at all.

Visma has 2 TDF wins with one rider, 2 GT last two years when the flip was switched in UAE, and then you have all their riders like WVA, laporte etc etc all declining meanwhile on the other side..Be realistic.


Thank you. stuck to the past. The flip was switched in 24 noone is talking about 2021 its rather irrelevant to today performances which youve been explained many times but each time surprised more than the other.

You should read everything... I said Pogacar developed in what he is because he is a freak. He won a TdF when UAE was a joke. It's not like McNulty or Del Toro who really improved because UAE is the best team in the world now.

 

[Blanco]

Note the use of the word "arguably", but at the same time, please don't try to say he isn't at least in that discussion. Imho that would be silly.

Yes he is, and he will certainly be much more as time goes by.

 

[Blanco]

Half a dozen? Really? Ok, Cancellara... Enquetil who was beating chain smokers who rode with their legs open, and i assume you will say Indurain which is rather funny as he only won 29 out of 100 ITT's he did, while Evenepoel is already at 23 out of 46. Who else?

Yes I will say Indurain. He won the biggest races in the world by demolishing people in this discipline, and he did that over and over again.
Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, and Anquetil and Cancellara of course. Maybe Moser too.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yes I will say Indurain. He won the biggest races in the world by demolishing people in this discipline, and he did that over and over again.
Coppi, Merckx, Hinault, and Anquetil and Cancellara of course. Maybe Moser too.

Farcical. An absolute joke.

Coppi won 17 ITT's (Trofeo Baracchi isn't an ITT) many against a very narrow international field. If he won more which aren't documented on PCS, that likely means they were obscure amateur races. And while you can argue he had years taken away due to WW2, his winrate was also worse with 17/42. So i have no idea in what world you want to dig up some more fossils, but this ain't it. Him not being able to race during WW2 is a shame, but he didn't win anything so you can't say anything sensible about that. I too like to argue Evenepoel could have been WCC ITT in 2020 and 2021, but he got injured in 2020 and so he didn't compete and was still on the way back in 2021, hence you can't use that to pad the stats when comparing to Cancellara or others.

Moser won 17 ITT's out of 69 in his career over 12 years, again Trofeo Baracchi aren't ITT's. He did not have the excuse of a worldwar, so how on earth you even mention him is all sorts of delusional. Most of his wins come from the Giro.

Hinault also has a worse win rate, but he was lucky to race in an era where the TDF organizers offered him 4 ITT's per year in his peak so his win count is higher (40/91). Merckx has 56/108.

Evenepoel is 23 out of 46, including the biggest ITT's on the planet, 3x worlds, 2x euros, 1x olympics, at 25 years of age, ignoring other feats such as silver at the WCC ITT at 19 years of age. So for now i will agree with Cancellara. Indurain doesn't have nearly the win rate to be in the conversation. For every ITT he won by demolishing the opposition, he lost 3 or 4. Regarding how he won those, that is a matter for the clinic. Moser, has to be a joke, Coppi likewise. Enquetil and Merckx, if you want to count an era where the opposition were chainsmoking alcoholics who were racing on saddles too low and rode with their legs open, then sure, they won more. Hinault was blessed the organisers of the Tour de France were... French. Does it make him more worthy of the moniker "best of all time"? Maybe to you.

I am willing to give you 3 of your 7 ignoring the vast historical chasm. Maybe 4 on a sunny day.

 

[Blanco]

Farcical. An absolute joke.

Coppi won 17 ITT's (Trofeo Baracchi isn't an ITT) many against a very narrow international field. If he won more which aren't documented on PCS, that likely means they were obscure amateur races. And while you can argue he had years taken away due to WW2, his winrate was also worse with 17/42. So i have no idea in what world you want to dig up some more fossils, but this ain't it. Him not being able to race during WW2 is a shame, but he didn't win anything so you can't say anything sensible about that. I too like to argue Evenepoel could have been WCC ITT in 2020 and 2021, but he got injured in 2020 and so he didn't compete and was still on the way back in 2021, hence you can't use that to pad the stats when comparing to Cancellara or others.

Moser won 17 ITT's out of 69 in his career over 12 years, again Trofeo Baracchi aren't ITT's. He did not have the excuse of a worldwar, so how on earth you even mention him is all sorts of delusional. Most of his wins come from the Giro.

Hinault also has a worse win rate, but he was lucky to race in an era where the TDF organizers offered him 4 ITT's per year in his peak so his win count is higher (40/91). Merckx has 56/108.

Evenepoel is 23 out of 46, including the biggest ITT's on the planet, 3x worlds, 2x euros, 1x olympics, at 25 years of age, ignoring other feats such as silver at the WCC ITT at 19 years of age. So for now i will agree with Cancellara. Indurain doesn't have nearly the win rate to be in the conversation. For every ITT he won by demolishing the opposition, he lost 3 or 4. Regarding how he won those, that is a matter for the clinic. Moser, has to be a joke, Coppi likewise. Enquetil and Merckx, if you want to count an era where the opposition were chainsmoking alcoholics who were racing on saddles too low and rode with their legs open, then sure, they won more. Hinault was blessed the organisers of the Tour de France were... French. Does it make him more worthy of the moniker "best of all time"? Maybe to you.

I am willing to give you 3 of your 7 ignoring the vast historical chasm. Maybe 4 on a sunny day.

First about Indurain:
Indurain rode only one WC and won it. He rode one Olympics and aslo won it. He won 8 out of 10 TT's in his reigning Tour de France period 1991-1995. That two he had lost were at the very end of the race where he was many minutes ahead of oppostion, so he probably eased up in those. He won 4/6 TT's in Giro. He won 7 Grand Tours mostly due to TT ability. What he has done in 1990-1996 period was total dominance in time-trialing. If the WC was held in those years Indurain would be a multiple champion, no doubt. For me, his achievements stands above Remco's, at leatst for now.

Coppi was an Hour record holder, multiple winner of most important TT races from that time , GP des Nations - won 2/4, GP Lugano and Trofeo Barrachi (yes it was not an ITT but a couple TT, but was a major TT event in which individual TT skill had great importance). Won multiple Giro and Tour time trials, although there weren't many of them in those days. his win rate was 50% or above for the whole time until his last two season when he was 40-year old. I wouldn't say he was superior TT-ist than Remco, but I wouldn't say that he was lessr either. Remco will certainly surpass him but for now i would rank them as equal.

Moser, also an hour record holder, 14-time GT ITT stage winner (although you're right, mostly Giro). Funny, PCS counts him 41 win, but you count 17 (though to prologue wins I guess, but those are also TT's). I agree with you here, though, I count Remco higher than him in the ITT hierarchy.

Hinault, 51 win listed on PCS, 5-time winner of the GP des Nations (sort of an unofficial WC), 26 times Grand Tour ITT stage winner! (20-Tour de France!!!) No, I don't think Remco is there yet...

Anquetil, Merckx and Cancellara I won't even elaborate. They are simply better.