Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[johnymax]

Do we know what the expectation is for what Jumbo's Tour team? Assuming Dennis and possibly Dumoulin are to slide in and that (I would guess) Affini takes over the Tony Martin role I struggle to see how they'll squeeze in any cobbled specialists outside of Van Aert without losing a mountain domestique.

I'd go with
Roglic
Vingegaard
Kuss
Kruijswijk
Van Aert
Dennis

Last two spots would be between Dumoulin, Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

Or maybe if Dumoulin finds back some of his climbing form, take him instead of Kruijswijk and go with two between Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

 

[EliseeReclus]

I'd go with
Roglic
Vingegaard
Kuss
Kruijswijk
Van Aert
Dennis

Last two spots would be between Dumoulin, Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

Or maybe if Dumoulin finds back some of his climbing form, take him instead of Kruijswijk and go with two between Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

Maybe Gesink still deserves a shout at getting in as well? I think this was the dilemma I had when trying to think of a squad for them you probably want one of Teunissen or Laporte (or even Van Hooydonck) to be able to handcuff at least Rog and Vingegaard to classics specialists. But that probably rules out taking Gesink, and with Martin retiring having both missing would be losing a lot of your experience in terms of 'road captains' (if that even means anything). Although that then means that Affini probably misses out so I think this may just become a headache

 

[Rackham]

Has he even hinted that? How was it a backstabbing? Its not like he attacked him when he punctured or anything. He was just better and more deserving.

In 2019 after the Vuelta, Roglic did an interview for Marca in which he said Pogacar is his friend & he even helped Pog become a "better cyclist": https://co.marca.com/claro/ciclismo/vuelta-espana/2019/09/16/5d7f8abeca474169428b4617.html

Pogacar dio una exhibición el sábado, ¿se esperaba algo así?

Tadej es mi amigo. Es un chaval increíble, muy bueno. Tiene un talento demoledor y lo ha demostrado durante esta La Vuelta. Le he ayudado en algunos tramos para que sea mejor ciclista. En la Plataforma fue muy valiente y esa actitud le sirvió para ganar la etapa y meterse en el podio.

They clearly got on really well. Then 2020 happened & the Code Yellow documentary in particular showed the desolation in the Jumbo camp afterwards. The mood changed & Roglic was no longer forthcoming about friendship with Pog & definitely not helping him either.

Natural evolution considering the rivalry, but still a notable change in the relationship between the two of them. And there's no telling whether Roglic felt he shouldn't have helped Pog at all considering what followed (whatever that "help" was).

 

[Carols]

They were getting along well until that legendary PDBF TT. I think then Primoz felt as if his younger peer had backstabbed him, it was his turn to win and the future was for Tadej. Since then he's avoided Tadej subject in interviews and once mentioned they had never been friends.

Pure conjecture IMO. Every time I see him with Pogi they are buddy , buddy.

 

[Carols]

In 2019 after the Vuelta, Roglic did an interview for Marca in which he said Pogacar is his friend & he even helped Pog become a "better cyclist": https://co.marca.com/claro/ciclismo/vuelta-espana/2019/09/16/5d7f8abeca474169428b4617.html




They clearly got on really well. Then 2020 happened & the Code Yellow documentary in particular showed the desolation in the Jumbo camp afterwards. The mood changed & Roglic was no longer forthcoming about friendship with Pog & definitely not helping him either.

Natural evolution considering the rivalry, but still a notable change in the relationship between the two of them. And there's no telling whether Roglic felt he shouldn't have helped Pog at all considering what followed (whatever that "help" was).

Once your rival proves how strong he is, one stops helping them. IMO he wanted to ensure Pogi got on the podium and so he helped him.
But backstabbed is a Very Strong feeling to project onto someone who has never displayed any animosity towards Pogi.

 

[tobydawq]

Problem is, now Primoz‘ opponents know he lacks bike handling skills, and has problems riding in a very big, nervous peloton. Now the opponents might try to take Primoz out, to make him crash. Just like Colbrelli made Primoz crash in 2021‘s Tour. They will try to make him crash again, and say „We didn‘t do anything wrong“, just like Colbrelli said afterwards... :-(

Come on...

 

[Rackham]

Once your rival proves how strong he is, one stops helping them. IMO he wanted to ensure Pogi got on the podium and so he helped him.
But backstabbed is a Very Strong feeling to project onto someone who has never displayed any animosity towards Pogi.

I'll put my neck out here & say after the Tour 2020, Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar in any way.

You have to see that Dutch documentary, particularly the final shot of Primoz Roglic walking desolately towards his hotel in the car park. Richard Plugge (his boss) asked him how he felt & the answer was "shame".

Roglic obviously felt really, really sh*t & felt the full weight of responsibility for letting his teammates down at the end & everyone else who'd backed him in that Tour. And the fact it was a Slovenian who administered the fatal blow probably made it way worse.

So no more buddy buddy.

 

[Carols]

I'll put my neck out here & say after the Tour 2020, Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar in any way.

You have to see that Dutch documentary, particularly the final shot of Primoz Roglic walking desolately towards his hotel in the car park. Richard Plugge (his boss) asked him how he felt & the answer was "shame".

Roglic obviously felt really, really sh*t & felt the full weight of responsibility for letting his teammates down at the end & everyone else who'd backed him in that Tour. And the fact it was a Slovenian who administered the fatal blow probably made it way worse.

So no more buddy buddy.

That in no way indicates 'back stabbed' by Pogi. Of course he was desolete he lost! I haven't noticed any difference in his behavior towards Pogi personally. He has Too Much Class to hold His loss against anyone other than himself. He has Always accepted responsibility for his performances, good or bad.

 

[BlueRoads]

I'm gonna do a hot take and say Roubaix is overrated as hell just because you can win it if you're a big boy without explosivity

That's been my take for many years...

 

[BlueRoads]

I'd go with
Roglic
Vingegaard
Kuss
Kruijswijk
Van Aert
Dennis

Last two spots would be between Dumoulin, Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

Or maybe if Dumoulin finds back some of his climbing form, take him instead of Kruijswijk and go with two between Teunissen, Laporte and Affini.

At this moment I'd take:

Roglic
Vingegaard
Kuss
Van Aert
Dennis
Affini
Teunissen
Dumoulin or Foss

 

[Krzysztof_O]

That in no way indicates 'back stabbed' by Pogi. Of course he was desolete he lost! I haven't noticed any difference in his behavior towards Pogi personally. He has Too Much Class to hold His loss against anyone other than himself. He has Always accepted responsibility for his performances, good or bad.

"Back-stabbing" may be too strong word but the difference between their relations is evident. As @Rackham stated, he regarded Pog as a friend before. Even Pog himself said he had "mixed feelings" when he beat his compatriot at PDBF, which signals a bond. However, a few months ago Roglic stated they had never been friends.

 

[Carols]

"Back-stabbing" may be too strong word

Thank you, that is what I took exception with. He has never shown any indication that is how he feels. And none of us are mind readers!

 

[CyclistAbi]

From some objective point of view i feel that it is safe to say Pogačar was "protected" rider by JV. And there were some public comments made by UAE (main) staff during the race. On how the final result of the race shouldn't affect their friendship. And after the race has finished UAE staff admitted they planned this scenario all along.

Obviously being in Roglič shoes you could end up feeling as you have been taken advantage of. But in the end this was just another lesson to be learned. Relationship obviously changed from being a mentor to now being a rival.

Historically speaking in such moments one was crushed and a new star was born. But still Roglič is rather special in this regard. He never cried about it and he bounced back. Sure, he likely would have two Tour titles more by now. Still he has a monument, GT hat-trick, Olympic gold medal in ITT and an opponent worth beating. Beating Eddy Merckx is worth a Tour title or two.

 

[CyclistAbi]

One possible approach could be to get married, have honeymoon and after to move in with van Aert. To go hunting with van Aert during the off season. There van Aert can tell Roglič when he is raady for cobbles and can show him the spot on where they will drop Pogačar. To gain two minutes. Then they can go all in and if Roglič gains that two minutes, great, otherwise to crash and go to Vuelta.

 

[Red Rick]

I mean the UAE "we totally planned this" is just stupid justification of "lol we had a shite team what do you want me to do"

 

[tobydawq]

One possible approach could be to get married, have honeymoon and after to move in with van Aert. To go hunting with van Aert during the off season. There van Aert can tell Roglič when he is raady for cobbles and can show him the spot on where they will drop Pogačar. To gain two minutes. Then they can go all in and if Roglič gains that two minutes, great, otherwise to crash and go to Vuelta.

Is Van Aert the one he should marry too?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Is Van Aert the one he should marry too?

Bromance should do fine.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I mean the UAE "we totally planned this" is just stupid justification of "lol we had a shite team what do you want me to do"

The beauty of it was they didn't have a weak team. In Pogačar defence he did say he wanted to attack earlier. He was held back by the team. As the plan all along was the ITT.

Now i don't blame them. Looking from Roglič perspective. He has taken this as a gent. I am just glad he bounced back. The rest is a non issue.

They can discuss this further on the road. If there are still some oppressing issues to discuss. Nine months to go. Unless they both end up doing Giro. Then less then nine months to go!

 

[CyclistAbi]

And yes, that guy running behind van Aert in cyclo-cross season. Wearing van Aert bike.

I totally agree he is a Roglič look-alike.

 

[Sciatic]

I'll put my neck out here & say after the Tour 2020, Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar in any way.

You have to see that Dutch documentary, particularly the final shot of Primoz Roglic walking desolately towards his hotel in the car park. Richard Plugge (his boss) asked him how he felt & the answer was "shame".

Roglic obviously felt really, really sh*t & felt the full weight of responsibility for letting his teammates down at the end & everyone else who'd backed him in that Tour. And the fact it was a Slovenian who administered the fatal blow probably made it way worse.

So no more buddy buddy.

I don’t know where you got your psychology 101 supposed insights from, but being emotionally devastated by the result of a competitive loss does not mean everyone develops that kind of antipathy or bitterness toward their opponent. Not everyone in this world automatically projects their frustration or anger onto someone else. At minimum, Roglic certainly could have come away understanding that he needs to be more professionally distant from his opponent, for his own sake but also to display his commitment and loyalty to his team.

Although the emotional intensity is much greater in Roglic’s situation, it’s not entirely different than when a coworker who is a good friend gets promoted and becomes the other person’s supervisor. Both parties understand the relationship will have to change to some degree. And sure, some people who are more self-centered can become resentful and spiteful toward the person who got the promotion. But not everyone does and plenty of people work through that just fine, still valuing the relationship they developed while understanding it has changed.

 

[Blanco]

Tadej and Primoz actually remind me of Wout and Mathieu: they race against each other, but seem to like each other, also...

So it‘s good it‘s cycling, and no boxing.

Wout and Mathieu don't like each other. They talk all the time about some mutual respect, blah, blah.., but you could tell easily that they don't like each other. Something like Boonen and Cancellara...

 

[Rackham]

I don’t know where you got your psychology 101 supposed insights from, but being emotionally devastated by the result of a competitive loss does not mean everyone develops that kind of antipathy or bitterness toward their opponent. Not everyone in this world automatically projects their frustration or anger onto someone else. At minimum, Roglic certainly could have come away understanding that he needs to be more professionally distant from his opponent, for his own sake but also to display his commitment and loyalty to his team.

Although the emotional intensity is much greater in Roglic’s situation, it’s not entirely different than when a coworker who is a good friend gets promoted and becomes the other person’s supervisor. Both parties understand the relationship will have to change to some degree. And sure, some people who are more self-centered can become resentful and spiteful toward the person who got the promotion. But not everyone does and plenty of people work through that just fine, still valuing the relationship they developed while understanding it has changed.

You've misread my posts.

I never said Roglic felt "bitterness", "antipathy" or anything similar towards Pog, so the rest of your comment is not relevant. I said "Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar".

Which I'd bet is 100% true. Gone are the days when he was happy to see Pog on the podium of the Vuelta or see him tag along on JV's coattails, now he's treated as rival number one & the rider to beat, watch, cover & mark. Gone are the days where he'd describe Pog as a friend in the media, now it's la guerre out there on the road.

Kate Wagner (who has covered both of them pretty extensively) had an interesting article earlier this week detailing the apparent "cooling" in their relationship: the rivalry that wasn't - by kate wagner - derailleur (substack.com)

And pointing out they're frosty compared to 2019 or early 2020 doesn't automatically = "OMG Rog hates Pog waaa", but there's an understandable layer of realpolitik here which means those who say "Roglic & Pogacar are still friends!" are most likely themselves "projecting" what they want to see. Because based on evidence (& certainly how buddy buddy Rog is with loads of his other rivals, like Mas in the Vuelta), there's nothing there with Pog anymore.

 

[cellardoor]

I mean the UAE "we totally planned this" is just stupid justification of "lol we had a shite team what do you want me to do"

Exactly, it's the most obvious strategy in that situation. Stay close to the favourite, avoid putting pressure on the team by taking the lead and try and steal it in the final TT. I doubt they had a pre-race meeting where they said "Let's lose time in crosswinds so that Roglic allows Pogacar to go on a mountain raid to get a podium and then let's bank on getting a minute or so in the final TT".

 

[Sciatic]

You've misread my posts.

I never said Roglic felt "bitterness", "antipathy" or anything similar towards Pog, so the rest of your comment is not relevant. I said "Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar".

Which I'd bet is 100% true. Gone are the days when he was happy to see Pog on the podium of the Vuelta or see him tag along on JV's coattails, now he's treated as rival number one & the rider to beat, watch, cover & mark. Gone are the days where he'd describe Pog as a friend in the media, now it's la guerre out there on the road.

Kate Wagner (who has covered both of them pretty extensively) had an interesting article earlier this week detailing the apparent "cooling" in their relationship: the rivalry that wasn't - by kate wagner - derailleur (substack.com)

And pointing out they're frosty compared to 2019 or early 2020 doesn't automatically = "OMG Rog hates Pog waaa", but there's an understandable layer of realpolitik here which means those who say "Roglic & Pogacar are still friends!" are most likely themselves "projecting" what they want to see. Because based on evidence (& certainly how buddy buddy Rog is with loads of his other rivals, like Mas in the Vuelta), there's nothing there with Pog anymore.

it’s possible I did misunderstand to some degree because the double negative in “Roglic could no longer care less about Pogacar” makes it hard to know what you really meant.
That phrase as written means that he now cares more about Pogacar. But I suspected you meant “now he could care less about Pogacar.” If that’s the case, and it’s true they once had a friendly relationship, is exactly an expression of resentment and antipathy. Which is completely possible, but wasn’t something I was aware of previously.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Exactly, it's the most obvious strategy in that situation. Stay close to the favourite, avoid putting pressure on the team by taking the lead and try and steal it in the final TT. I doubt they had a pre-race meeting where they said "Let's lose time in crosswinds so that Roglic allows Pogacar to go on a mountain raid to get a podium and then let's bank on getting a minute or so in the final TT".

The part where they lost time. That for sure was not the initial plan. But the final TT was the plan all along. They more or less confirmed that in some post race interviews. Hence being a "protected" rider by JV could be perceived as exploitation of the hospitality. From being a human point of view. From Tour point of view obviously you can't blame them. They did the right thing by exploiting the weakens that Roglič forgot to stomp upon. It's life. You learn as you go. Hence i wouldn't hold that against Roglič.

P.S. As for the claim Roglič cracked mentally at Il Lombardia. The thought from the article above. I don't buy that for a second. That is a rather superficial take on it and more importantly a wrong one. It's true that in sport people have short memory and the last win or lose means much. Still lets not forget Basque or just a couple of days before MT.