Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Big Doopie]

It's possible he is starting to decline, but he's never been a hero at positioning so I don't see how that would be an indication of a possible decline.

has he always been? even in 2020?

it can be decline if you literally do not have the power to get to the best position, for sure. do you think positioning is just whether you want to be or not? no, you have to be strong enough.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

Obviously he would try. If he's still able to get a good position in final GC he will go all out. It would be ridiculous if he doesn't give it his all in a TT just to not overtake a teammate.

Even if they're 2-3 in the GC? With a distant 4th and an unreachable Pogi?

 

[Netserk]

has he always been? even in 2020?

it can be decline if you literally do not have the power to get to the best position, for sure. do you think positioning is just whether you want to be or not? no, you have to be strong enough.

Sagan is a shadow of his former strength, yet he can still position himself really well when he wants to. The ability to surf the peloton, to fight for position, and to move up around corners are more about ability than form.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

has he always been? even in 2020?

it can be decline if you literally do not have the power to get to the best position, for sure. do you think positioning is just whether you want to be or not? no, you have to be strong enough.

I wouldn't be surprised if he were losing his elan a bit too. Being content with an 8th (or so) in Itzulia (or any other race) would be very much out of his character in 2020 (and even in 2021).

 

[Red Rick]

Sagan is a shadow of his former strength, yet he can still position himself really well when he wants to. The ability to surf the peloton, to fight for position, and to move up around corners are more about ability than form.

And it's about fearlessness as well. If anything Sagan may have gotten more frisky to compensate for his lesser form, while Roglic seems have gotten more twitchy as a result of a few bad crashes.

 

[Elos Anjos]

lots of mentions on lanterne rouge about rog's bad positioning -- even before the crash (for instance Calais), but positioning can be that you have a slight decrease in ability and therefore struggle to even make it to the right position.

rog is admirable, but he is not better than 2020 and, imo, at the start of decline.

Well, that is a theoretical possibility but Vuelta 2021 was the most dominant performance he had in a GT.

 

[Bonimenier]

Even if they're 2-3 in the GC? With a distant 4th and an unreachable Pogi?

Yeah, why not? Vingegaard already finished 2nd last year so it's not like it would be once in a lifetime expierence for him. Probably the only scenario I could think of not going full is when they are 3rd and 4th and the guy in 3rd has never won something massive or finished podium in a GT.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

I don‘t think Primoz is on his decline.

Primoz turns 33 in 2022. Remember, Cadel Evans won the TdF in 2011, aged 34. At this time, Cadel had been racing bikes for 20 years.

Primoz, however, obviously rode his first serious bike races nine or ten years ago. That is a big difference: ten years less of bike training and racing.

I think Primoz still has space to improve.

Just look at guys like Horner, Valverde, LL Sanchez, Damiano Caruso, Pozzovivo, et al, too: they are getting better all the time…

 

[CyclistAbi]

lots of mentions on lanterne rouge about rog's bad positioning -- even before the crash (for instance Calais), but positioning can be that you have a slight decrease in ability and therefore struggle to even make it to the right position.

rog is admirable, but he is not better than 2020 and, imo, at the start of decline.

For me a sign of his decline was on top of PDBF this year. As he couldn't stomp Pogi anymore.

 

[Netserk]

If he doesn't improve with his back, he only has two tasks left before he can leave the race. An all-out suicide attack on Galibier, and a full-gas launch for Vingegaard on Alpe d'Huez. He was the one to blow the race up in Itzulia this year even when injured. He can do that again.

 

[Elos Anjos]

If he doesn't improve with his back, he only has two tasks left before he can leave the race. An all-out suicide attack on Galibier, and a full-gas launch for Vingegaard on Alpe d'Huez. He was the one to blow the race up in Itzulia this year even when injured. He can do that again.

For me helping Vingo should be out of the question. Personally and strategically I think Roglic has good reasons to think in what's best for him.

He should go all out in an all or nothing mission. That would put Pogacar (and others) in the dilema to chase or not. If Pogacar chases, he can tow others.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Sending an injured man on a long range attack this soon in my opinion shouldn't be plan A. Or blowing himself up to try to drop Pogi. As that won't help him or Jonas. In my opinion he needs to (try to) stay with Jonas or Pogi. Or both. That is not to get dropped till the end of stage 12.

But i know easier said than done.

From attack point of view to join some (strong) group and make UAE chase. But for this to work you need to find yourself in such situation. And that is unlikely on such race. Still no need to dismiss such option upfront. Be prepared for it.

On a personal note. I in a way like he doesn't stomp this much this year. Should do him good latter on. That is if he gets to there.

 

[YavorD]

For all the talk regarding Roglic (me included) being young on the bike, in the last days I'm starting to think...he was actually doing a high end sport at 17, although a very different one. Maybe this has some impact on the body and even mentally?
Besides, he's had 4 (?) seasons on top. A lot of cyclists have between 4 and 6 top seasons, so considering all this might be natural decline.

I'd prefer to be wrong but that was just a random thought.

 

[CyclistAbi]

For all the talk regarding Roglic (me included) being young on the bike, in the last days I'm starting to think...he was actually doing a high end sport at 17, although a very different one. Maybe this has some impact on the body and even mentally?
Besides, he's had 4 (?) seasons on top. A lot of cyclists have between 4 and 6 top seasons, so considering all this might be natural decline.

I'd prefer to be wrong but that was just a random thought.

For me a sign of his decline was on top of PDBF this year. As he couldn't stomp Pogi anymore.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

For me a sign of his decline was on top of PDBF this year. As he couldn't stomp Pogi anymore.

I suppose the reason why Primoz lacked a little bit on Friday‘s PDBF was that he faced ramps of more than 20% and gravel sections in the finale. Both might have been a bit tricky due to his then quite fresh shoulder dislocation. When dislocated, the shoulder tends to dislocate again, particularly within the first few days afterwards. So he might have been cautious on Friday. For stomping, he relies very much on his upper body…

 

[CyclistAbi]

I suppose the reason why Primoz lacked a little bit on Friday‘s PDBF was that he faced ramps of more than 20% and gravel sections in the finale. Both might have been a bit tricky due to his then quite fresh shoulder dislocation. When dislocated, the shoulder tends to dislocate again, particularly within the first few days afterwards. So he might have been cautious on Friday. For stomping, he relies very much on his upper body…

Nah i don't buy that. It was perfectly clear.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Imagine how all the older guys behind him must have felt. On top of PDBF. We are in decline. And on how all the younger guys must have felt. The one finishing behind. All over for them. As if they couldn't beat Rogla in their peak years. It's only downhill from there on.

On top of that he was injured.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Maybe this has some impact on the body and even mentally?

Yes, I would say, very much so.

Primoz, IMHO, is a mentally unbeatable pro cyclist.

CSC‘s rider Christian Müller once said about his then Team General Manager, Bjarne Riis, that Bjarne is mentally unbeatable. I think Müller was right. Bjarne went to the extreme as an active pro rider. He asked the questions, and received the answers he needed. This made him unbeatable. He went on to win the Tour again, this time with Sastre - years after Müller‘s quote.

With Primoz, it can be compared. There has certainly never been a ski jumper who had not been scared before flying from Planica‘s Letalnica hill. These are experiences only to be made by extreme people. If you decide to face such challenges, everything that comes with it certainly changes you irreversibly, as an athlete and as a person. As an athlete after changing into other disciplines of sports, you‘ll benefit from these past experiences - no doubt about that.

 

[YavorD]

Yes, I would say, very much so.

Primoz, IMHO, is a mentally unbeatable pro cyclist.

CSC‘s rider Christian Müller once said about his then Team General Manager, Bjarne Riis, that Bjarne is mentally unbeatable. I think Müller was right. Bjarne went to the extreme as an active pro rider. He asked the questions, and received the answers he needed. This made him unbeatable. He went on to win the Tour again, this time with Sastre - years after Müller‘s quote.

With Primoz, it can be compared. There has certainly never been a ski jumper who had not been scared before flying from Planica‘s Letalnica hill. These are experiences only to be made by extreme people. If you decide to face such challenges, everything that comes with it certainly changes you irreversibly, as an athlete and as a person. As an athlete after changing into other disciplines of sports, you‘ll benefit from these past experiences - no doubt about that.

For that matter, have you ever done ski jumping on a decent to serious level? How much impact does it have on a human body?
I am a massive fan of ski jumping, never done it myself and I just wonder if it's tough physically. As on the tv screen it seems it's mostly about mental aspect, confidence and such things, hense my reference regarding mental toughness of doing high end sportS for 15 years.

 

[CyclistAbi]

For that matter, have you ever done ski jumping on a decent to serious level? How much impact does it have on a human body?
I am a massive fan of ski jumping, never done it myself and I just wonder if it's tough physically. As on the tv screen it seems it's mostly about mental aspect, confidence and such things, hense my reference regarding mental toughness of doing high end sportS for 15 years.

Primož likely has a bit denser bone structure. Compared to an average pro cyclist. Due to his previous career. Great flexibility is likely another tradeoff. Weight control is a routine for ski jumper. Weight training is what i assume helps his stomp a bit. But in cycling you use other muscles and hence this isn't 1:1. As for things like mental strength. That likely comes down to a person you are. Environment likely influencing you to some extent.

 

[Bonimenier]

For me helping Vingo should be out of the question. Personally and strategically I think Roglic has good reasons to think in what's best for him.

He should go all out in an all or nothing mission. That would put Pogacar (and others) in the dilema to chase or not. If Pogacar chases, he can tow others.

Good thing Roglic isn't as egomaniac as you would like him to be.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

For that matter, have you ever done ski jumping on a decent to serious level? How much impact does it have on a human body?
I am a massive fan of ski jumping, never done it myself and I just wonder if it's tough physically. As on the tv screen it seems it's mostly about mental aspect, confidence and such things, hense my reference regarding mental toughness of doing high end sportS for 15 years.

Yeah, I think CyclistAbi explained it really well…

Regarding performance, the muscle strength/power you mainly need in ski jumping is explosive power - something which decreases with increased endurance training…

 

[bNator]

Yeah, why not? Vingegaard already finished 2nd last year so it's not like it would be once in a lifetime expierence for him. Probably the only scenario I could think of not going full is when they are 3rd and 4th and the guy in 3rd has never won something massive or finished podium in a GT.

Because Vinge in 2nd with some small margin to Rogla in 3rd might act differently in the last couple of stages if he is threatened by Roglič - perhaps in a way that could endanger Roglič. And vice versa. That’s why a team will usually keep (command) internal status quo if there are no external benefits to be gained…

Edit: if you are questioning whether Roglič is a guy who keeps his end of a deal… Well…

 

[Big Doopie]

For me helping Vingo should be out of the question. Personally and strategically I think Roglic has good reasons to think in what's best for him.

He should go all out in an all or nothing mission. That would put Pogacar (and others) in the dilema to chase or not. If Pogacar chases, he can tow others.

agreed. He should do what Bernal did (to Thomas) in 2019. Dare the opponents to chase. If they do, he potentially sets up Vingo. If they don’t, he wins by being the smartest though not the strongest.

 

[Carols]

Yes, I would say, very much so.

Primoz, IMHO, is a mentally unbeatable pro cyclist.

CSC‘s rider Christian Müller once said about his then Team General Manager, Bjarne Riis, that Bjarne is mentally unbeatable. I think Müller was right. Bjarne went to the extreme as an active pro rider. He asked the questions, and received the answers he needed. This made him unbeatable. He went on to win the Tour again, this time with Sastre - years after Müller‘s quote.

Was that before or after Riis tossed his TT bike? Mentally unbeatable my butt!

Primoz Go Home, Get Better, Win the Vuelta.