Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

As for the detailed legal explanation. Kudos to you for doing that. Or as for the short version:

Roglič didn't see or expect Wright coming from behind. This doesn't say he wasn't at fault at all. Wright has seen what Roglič was doing. Wright had two options. As he chose to accelerate and to get through regardless. That is reckless riding.

Especially as it resulted in crash. Bahrain saying but he didn't deviate from his line. It doesn't matter. He should use his head and try to save the situation. It doesn't make Wright 100% at fault. But it's 50% and up. There was no intention to try to save the situation. The opposite. Moreover Wright was prepared for the contact as he was expecting it. You can see that on the video. The thought lets try to save this situation never crossed his mind. For that it's appropriate for Roglič to speak up. To say i am glad you have my back if i do something stupid. As you see all the people with opinion on this subject. For majority of them they couldn't care less if tomorrow Roglič or Wright will hit the deck. The reason on why it made sense to drag discussion about this incident further is as a champion has spoken out. The names and individual incident is not all that important. As often champions that have a voice don't do their part. They don't speak out. But the mob for sure does. Every time. And their precious opinion.

Imagine how much worse it’d be if Roglic broke his collar bone…

Exactly. For most it's just entertainment in the end. An afterthought.

 

[Oldermanish]

@SHAD0W93

As for the detailed legal explanation. Kudos to you for doing that. Or as for the short version:

Roglič didn't see or expect Wright coming from behind. This doesn't say he wasn't at fault at all. Wright has seen what Roglič was doing. Wright had two options. As he chose to accelerate and to get through regardless. That is reckless riding.

Especially as it resulted in crash. Bahrain saying but he didn't deviate from his line. It doesn't matter. He should use his head and try to save the situation. It doesn't make Wright 100% at fault. But it's 50% and up. There was no intention to try to save the situation. The opposite. Moreover Wright was prepared for the contact as he was expecting it. You can see that on the video. The thought lets try to save this situation never crossed his mind. For that it's appropriate for Roglič to speak up. To say i am glad you have my back if i do something stupid. As you see all the people with opinion on this subject. For majority of them they couldn't care less if tomorrow Roglič or Wright will hit the deck. The reason on why it made sense to drag discussion about this incident further is as a champion has spoken out. The names and individual incident is not all that important. As often champions that have a voice don't do their part. They don't speak out. But the mob for sure does. Every time. And their precious opinion.



Exactly. For most it's just entertainment in the end. An afterthought.

You are seeing and believing exactly what you wish to for the sake of your argument. Wright holds his line, maintains pace and, in fact; practices safe riding by moving left and reduces the potential of impact with Roglic by buffering with his knee and still maintains his zone of occupancy. It's absolutely his area in the echelon and has no obligation to yield and it would be dangerously stupid to attempt to that close to the barriers. Critical to this: he held his line. Also critical: he made a defensive move to reduce the impact by Roglic without initiating the contact. Roglic was going to make serious impact no matter what Wright did. He has zero obligation to slam on the brakes and cause both of them to go down in what would likely been a much bloodier crash by Roglic taking out his front wheel.
In real time all of these actions took less than two seconds and where primarily the instinctive response of each rider; not a conscious effort to take over the place in the echelon. There would be no point as no one was going to win from that spot in line.
If you'd ever been in that position, you'd know how unreasonable your argument is. I admire Roglic greatly but it's clear he didn't know where Wright was and what was going to happen. He knows it now if he didn't then and that's the crux of this pointless melodrama: he can't admit it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Oldermanish

I agree with you on the knee part.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Thats what happens if some posters defend the most outrageous statement of a rider.

So what you are saying is you didn't often made a comment in regards to lets say Rogličes injuries. On how you have seen them. And after opposing views being expressed. And that AFAIK not convincing you. For finally the doctor that treated Roglič to set things straight. More or less forcing some people to realign their initial believes.

All in all when a champion speaks up it deserves a page or two on a pro cycling oriented forum. Especially as injuries and crashes are such common thing. And so many champions chose to remain silent on this subject. Escaping the obligation to speak out.

If nothing else there is this rather nasty saying "nothing can be done". In this case and regardless if Roglič did anything stupid. Wright could have save the situation. Hence something could have been done. To prevent this crash.

And this is where modern cycling needs to go. Back off and relegate the rider in front of you if he deviates from the line. Preventing you to sprint. Instead of being reckless and forcing a crash.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

It doesn't really matter what i or you believe in this case. It was more of an internal peloton thing that needed to go public (strike two). As one member of a peloton to another. I am for sure glad you have my back. When i do something stupid. That was the message that needed to get through. A thank you note if you will.

As for the general public and on what they believe or do when they sit on a couch. It's like Netflix after all. Casual entertainment.

 

[jmdirt]

No. What i am actually saying is if the rider in front of you is doing something stupid. And you rather than using your head. To save the situation. If you rather just accelerate. To get through regardless of the outcome. That is reckless riding.

Not as bad as barging into a rider though which is what we are discussing here.

 

[RedheadDane]

So what you are saying is you didn't often made a comment in regards to lets say Rogličes injuries. On how you have seen them. And after opposing views being expressed. And that AFAIK not convincing you. For finally the doctor that treated Roglič to set things straight. More or less forcing some people to realign their initial believes.

Roglic's injuries are bad. Doesn't give him the right to wrongfully slander Wright. I'd say especially because he - Roglic - is the bigger name. We could have risked a situation in which everyone in the peloton had believed him, and shunned Wright. Luckily it seems most other riders are taking Wright's side.

It doesn't really matter what i or you believe in this case. It was more of an internal peloton thing that needed to go public (strike two).

Now you're claiming Wright has caused crashes before?

And the quote from Roglic is just kinda "Eeerrr":

“My conclusion is that the way this crash happened is unacceptable. Not everyone saw it correctly. The crash was not caused by a bad road or a lack of safety but by a rider's behaviour. I don't have eyes on my back. Otherwise, I would have run wide. Wright came from behind and rode the handlebars out of my hands before I knew it."

He's saying he only bothers keeping his line, if he knows there are others behind?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Now you're claiming Wright has caused crashes before?

I think they're referring to Colbrelli as the first strike and this the second.

@SHAD0W93
Roglič didn't see or expect Wright coming from behind. This doesn't say he wasn't at fault at all. Wright has seen what Roglič was doing. Wright had two options. As he chose to accelerate and to get through regardless. That is reckless riding.

Especially as it resulted in crash. Bahrain saying but he didn't deviate from his line. It doesn't matter. He should use his head and try to save the situation. It doesn't make Wright 100% at fault. But it's 50% and up. There was no intention to try to save the situation. The opposite. Moreover Wright was prepared for the contact as he was expecting it. You can see that on the video. The thought lets try to save this situation never crossed his mind. For that it's appropriate for Roglič to speak up. To say i am glad you have my back if i do something stupid. As you see all the people with opinion on this subject. For majority of them they couldn't care less if tomorrow Roglič or Wright will hit the deck. The reason on why it made sense to drag discussion about this incident further is as a champion has spoken out. The names and individual incident is not all that important. As often champions that have a voice don't do their part. They don't speak out. But the mob for sure does. Every time. And their precious opinion.



Exactly. For most it's just entertainment in the end. An afterthought.

Which is why I think Roglic made his statement because he didn't know Wright was in the group initially and felt like Wright came out of nowhere. That still doesn't negate the fact they rode alongside the other and had one pulling away without any issues. With both riders in their own lane on either side of the white line. Which was more than a frame or a few meters. What you are suggesting is no one in a sprint should pass a rider ahead of them because they could potentially swerve or crash into them.

While all of that is true and none of us want Roglic or anyone hurt, that was not my point of the collarbone remark.

@Oldermanish

I agree with you on the knee part.

Except the side view shows Wright passing Roglic, Roglic crashing into Wright, and finally the knee for protection.

@SHAD0W93
As one member of a peloton to another. I am for sure glad you have my back. When i do something stupid. That was the message that needed to get through. A thank you note if you will.

Wright can't do anything when the stupid happens behind him. Just like Roglic, he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. They rode alongside the other for an ample amount of time.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Not as bad as barging into a rider though which is what we are discussing here.

You said it yourself that the earth is not flat. Hence the discussion is not only about the party you would like it to be. And to end there. Roglič was not last in the line. Hence there was still something going on behind him. Influencing the outcome of this incident. It was not a hay bale. To say the least.

The question we came down to is. If the rider in front of you deviates from the line. Do you get a free pass in crashing him out or not. Or is it your duty to do everything in your power to save the situation. This is what we are discussing now. Roglič and Wright already did their part. And are now already focused on Il Lombardia and WC. They are really not that important in this discussion anymore.

People saying it's 100% Roglič fault. What they are actually saying is if the rider in front deviates from the line. The rider coming from behind. As long as he doesn't deviate from the line. He can crash the rider at front and there is no offense involved whatsoever under no circumstances.

In my opinion the answer here is clear. You don't get a free pass. As a rider coming from behind. It's your duty to save the situation. For it to not result in crash.

Or for an analogy. If you are riding on a highway and the car in front of you is starting to move into your lane. You have plenty of time to acknowledge what is going on. As the rider doesn't see you in his rear mirror the crash is imminent. If you don't do something about it. Now if there will be a video. Where there was no tail lights. On top of that a massive acceleration to be detected. Resulting in a crash. Or lets say somebody stole a couple of eggs from your basket. And you shot him.

Goof luck with the judge.

I can understand on why some people would rather stay at superficial take on it. As it aligns with their claim nothing can be done.

That is not true. In this case crash could be avoided if the rider coming from behind would back off and use other alternatives. Like use rider in front as a lead out, pass him latter on or from the other side. Or to at least shout out. Get out of my lane. Anything. To avoid the crash. Or if the sprint was ruined to relegate the rider in front after the race.

That is how it should be done in modern cycling. This is the standard.

In this case in my opinion the offense is nicely distributed in between both parties. One riding without due care and attention and the other one riding recklessly. But feel free to have other opinion.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

That is on why Rogličes offense was riding without do care or attention. But as much as some of you would like that. The story doesn't end there. Regardless if it ends there for you personally. There is more to it. But feel free to disregards that other part.

P.S. As for strike two. I was implying Colbrelli. The incident when Roglič stayed quiet and private correspondence what likely at play.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SHAD0W93

You see. If you will read your last post. There is much reason already in it. And you do tend to acknowledge the gist of it. On what we have discussed. That last part on how now suddenly Roglič was now coming from behind. That still needs some thought on your side. You likely agree on that?

 

[ice&fire]

Or for an analogy. If you are riding on a highway and the car in front of you is starting to move into your lane. You have plenty of time to acknowledge what is going on. As the rider doesn't see you in his rear mirror the crash is imminent. If you don't do something about it. Now if there will be a video. Where there was no tail lights. On top of that a massive acceleration to be detected. Resulting in a crash. Or lets say somebody stole a couple of eggs from your basket. And you shot him.

A car moving to a faster lane needs to look first, move after or wait until he can move.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

You said it yourself that the earth is not flat. Hence the discussion is not only about the party you would like it to be. And to end there. Roglič was not last in the line. Hence there was still something going on behind him. Influencing the outcome of this incident. It was not a hay bale. To say the least.

The question we came down to is. If the rider in front of you deviates from the line. Do you get a free pass in crashing him out or not. Or is it your duty to do everything in your power to save the situation. This is what we are discussing now. Roglič and Wright already did their part. And are now already focused on Il Lombardia and WC. They are really not that important in this discussion anymore.

People saying it's 100% Roglič fault. What they are actually saying is if the rider in front deviates from the line. The rider coming from behind. As long as he doesn't deviate from the line. He can crash the rider at front and there is no offense involved whatsoever under no circumstances.

In my opinion the answer here is clear. You don't get a free pass. As a rider coming from behind. It's your duty to save the situation. For it to not result in crash.

Or for an analogy. If you are riding on a highway and the car in front of you is starting to move into your lane. You have plenty of time to acknowledge what is going on. As the rider doesn't see you in his rear mirror the crash is imminent. If you don't do something about it. Now if there will be a video. Where there was no tail lights. On top of that a massive acceleration to be detected. Resulting in a crash. Or lets say somebody stole a couple of eggs from your basket. And you shot him.

Goof luck with the judge.

I can understand on why some people would rather stay at superficial take on it. As it aligns with their claim nothing can be done.

That is not true. In this case crash could be avoided if the rider coming from behind would back off and use other alternatives. Like use rider in front as a lead out, pass him latter on or from the other side. Or to at least shout out. Get out of my lane. Anything. To avoid the crash. Or if the sprint was ruined to relegate the rider in front after the race.

That is how it should be done in modern cycling. This is the standard.

In this case in my opinion the offense is nicely distributed in between both parties. One riding without due care and attention and the other one riding recklessly. But feel free to have other opinion.

All praise be to the great omnibenevolent being Lord Roglic of Slovenia who can do no wrong!!!!!!

In all seriousness, wtf are you smoking?

Riders don't have a minute to think about what to do at 200m to go. The entire accident took place within half a second between 2 riders next to each other at 70kmh

Roglic was on the front for 2km and its only sprinters in the group. No way he geys bonus seconds. He just needs to hold the last wheel in the group to not drop seconds. Instead he dives for the wheel Van Poppel, where Wright is

 

[CyclistAbi]

Anyway. I just read on how Adri van der Poel said Roglič crashes too much as he started cycling late and doesn't have the necessary riding skills. Hence as soon as he recognizes that the better for Roglič. If a person of such caliber says that. That is implying those are the facts. The facts like Roglič being a good ascended, descender, cobbler, on gravel ... That doesn't matter as he crashes a lot. That is omi and opi, Cobrelli, hay bale and Wright. That all happened as Roglič was a ski jumper. And he has bad riding skills. For sure. It just doesn't add up. Hence it was a well measured and appropriate response from Roglič. Long overdue. As now it comes down to opinions. And not facts anymore. On top of that it would be appropriate if Mathieu van der Poel could beat Roglič on the Tour. Before Adri van der Poel dismissing Roglič completely.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Ilmaestro99

My personal stance on smoking is don't do it. Don't be stupid.

No i didn't say Roglič was not at fault. I just determined the offense. And that is riding without do care or attention. But there is more to it. The story doesn't end there.

As for you saying Wright only had 2 meters and a split second to make his decision. That is just wrong. In sprinting terms it was more of a light year.

 

[topcat]

This is getting better. MVDP has to beat Rog in the Tour before Adri vdP expresses an opinion and Fred should not brace for impact when Rog crashes into him.
In Rog we trust.

 

[CyclistAbi]

A car moving to a faster lane needs to look first, move after or wait until he can move.

I agree on that. And if that doesn't happen or better it was not intentional. Than that is riding without do care of attention. If the other party involved does everything in their power to prevent the crash. There is basically no fault there. If the other party instead accelerates and contributes to the outcome. That is reckless driving.

 

[CyclistAbi]

This is getting better. MVDP has to beat Rog in the Tour before Adri vdP expresses an opinion and Fred should not brace for impact when Rog crashes into him.
In Rog we trust.

No. Adri didn't mention Fred. He just said Primož crashes a lot due to having bad bike handling skills. Due to being a ski jumper and all that BS. And then goes on on how it's all over for him and he should just accept that. Forget about the Tour. Basically Primož being in the same league as Mathieu. Why should the two even bother? Forget about the Tour.

Adrie van der Poel: "Roglič geen man voor Tour want zit meer op grond dan op fiets, nog veel andere doelen voor hem"

Adrie van der Poel heeft zijn glasheldere mening gegeven over de rol van Primož Roglič in de toekomst bij Jumbo-Visma en diens Tour-ambities.

www.wielerkrant.be

 

[Ilmaestro99]

@Ilmaestro99

My personal stance on smoking is don't do it. Don't be stupid.

No i didn't say Roglič was not at fault. I just determined the offense. And that is riding without do care or attention. But there is more to it. The story doesn't end there.

As for you saying Wright only had 2 meters and a split second to make his decision. That is just wrong. In sprinting terms it was more of a light year.

You write posts on here as if you are trying to fill a word count on an essay

 

[Red Rick]

No. Adri didn't mention Fred. He just said Primož crashes a lot due to having bad bike handling skills. Due to being a ski jumper and all that BS. And then goes on on how it's all over for him and he should just accept that. Forget about the Tour. Basically in the same league as Mathieu. Why do the two even bother?

Adrie van der Poel: "Roglič geen man voor Tour want zit meer op grond dan op fiets, nog veel andere doelen voor hem"

Adrie van der Poel heeft zijn glasheldere mening gegeven over de rol van Primož Roglič in de toekomst bij Jumbo-Visma en diens Tour-ambities.

www.wielerkrant.be

Van der Poel is just a guy who really, really loves the smell of his own farts.

 

[bNator]

You said it yourself that the earth is not flat. Hence the discussion is not only about the party you would like it to be. And to end there. Roglič was not last in the line. Hence there was still something going on behind him. Influencing the outcome of this incident. It was not a hay bale. To say the least.

The question we came down to is. If the rider in front of you deviates from the line. Do you get a free pass in crashing him out or not. Or is it your duty to do everything in your power to save the situation. This is what we are discussing now. Roglič and Wright already did their part. And are now already focused on Il Lombardia and WC. They are really not that important in this discussion anymore.

People saying it's 100% Roglič fault. What they are actually saying is if the rider in front deviates from the line. The rider coming from behind. As long as he doesn't deviate from the line. He can crash the rider at front and there is no offense involved whatsoever under no circumstances.

In my opinion the answer here is clear. You don't get a free pass. As a rider coming from behind. It's your duty to save the situation. For it to not result in crash.

Or for an analogy. If you are riding on a highway and the car in front of you is starting to move into your lane. You have plenty of time to acknowledge what is going on. As the rider doesn't see you in his rear mirror the crash is imminent. If you don't do something about it. Now if there will be a video. Where there was no tail lights. On top of that a massive acceleration to be detected. Resulting in a crash. Or lets say somebody stole a couple of eggs from your basket. And you shot him.

Goof luck with the judge.

I can understand on why some people would rather stay at superficial take on it. As it aligns with their claim nothing can be done.

That is not true. In this case crash could be avoided if the rider coming from behind would back off and use other alternatives. Like use rider in front as a lead out, pass him latter on or from the other side. Or to at least shout out. Get out of my lane. Anything. To avoid the crash. Or if the sprint was ruined to relegate the rider in front after the race.

That is how it should be done in modern cycling. This is the standard.

In this case in my opinion the offense is nicely distributed in between both parties. One riding without due care and attention and the other one riding recklessly. But feel free to have other opinion.

You are not wrong in your deductions and analogies. However - and I have already posted this to you - have you considered the possibility that Wright also could not react in time to stop the crash (which would be Roglič's fault)? That he did all he could (considering his circumstances) to avoid the crash?

There are possible 2 scenarios:

1. It all happened very fast and Wright had no time to react. Once Roglič was close enough all he could do was make sure he himself doesn't go down together with Roglič
2. Wright saw what was going on, knew they were going to crash, had time to think it over and then consciously decided he would not take any measures to avoid the crash.

If it was second scenario, then it's still Roglič's fault but Wright is a bit of a .... But we have absolutely no reason to suspect/believe it was the second scenario, let alone enough reason to make an accusation.

 

[ice&fire]

I agree on that. And if that doesn't happen or better it was not intentional. Than that is riding without do care of attention. If the other party involved does everything in their power to prevent the crash. There is basically no fault there. If the other party instead accelerates and contributes to the outcome. That is reckless driving.

The sprint was on. Reckless riding is pretending to catch the wheel of a rider in a line next to the barriers when the gap to the next rider in the line is less than a bike length. At that point the choice was between a one-rider crash and a two-riders crash.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Van der Poel is just a guy who really, really loves the smell of his own farts.

He would likely try to forbid Primož from contesting the sprints. And Primož and Mathieu to contest the Tour. Better if both riders just acknowledge they don't have it in them and role over dead. For Adri to after feel better. Or maybe for Primož and Mathieu to not do that.

We'll see.

 

[EliseeReclus]

Or for an analogy. If you are riding on a highway and the car in front of you is starting to move into your lane. You have plenty of time to acknowledge what is going on. As the rider doesn't see you in his rear mirror the crash is imminent. If you don't do something about it. Now if there will be a video. Where there was no tail lights. On top of that a massive acceleration to be detected. Resulting in a crash. Or lets say somebody stole a couple of eggs from your basket. And you shot him.

Goof luck with the judge.

This analogy makes no sense as braking to stop a crash on the highway rather than making contact with another car is clearly the better option. If I brake to stop the crash I will likely get a pretty big fright and probably lose a few seconds to arrive at my destination, if the crash happens, even if I'm completely safe and not at fault for the crash, it is the law that I have to wait by the car for the police to arrive.

Whereas none of these situations hold in a cycling race BECAUSE IT IS A RACE and the ultimate goal to win the race cannot be separated from the situation here and there will necessarily be more conflict between parties; it is not analogous to driving on the highway where the goal is for everyone to arrive safely at their destination. If Wright had let Roglic pass in then the crash might still have taken place and might have taken Wright out too, he also loses the ability to win the race and maybe Roglic gets relegated in the sprint if the commisaires do their job. Wright gains nothing and potentially crashes. If Wright holds the position he has earned and lets Roglic cause his own crash then Wright can protect himself from the crash and stay upright first, and can sprint still. Roglic made the reckless action, Wright has the right to prioritise and protect his own safety from Roglic's recklessness by staying upright, and to hold his racing position to maintain his ability to race.

If you really believe that Wright is the one at fault here, maybe you can do us all a favour, why don't you write a proposed rule that can be used to stop this perfidious behaviour by Wright that also doesn't legitimise the sprint of Groenewegen in Poland. Remember, that for it to be useful, it will have to be applicable universally and can't rely on one rider guessing what another rider might do or interpreting what their intentions might be.

 

[CyclistAbi]

You are not wrong in your deductions and analogies. However - and I have already posted this to you - have you considered the possibility that Wright also could not react in time to stop the crash (which would be Roglič's fault)? That he did all he could (considering his circumstances) to avoid the crash?

In my opinion it's really not about the blame. Blame is something for the instant media. It's about on how to proceed and improve in the future. Here i feel Roglič has a point. He can train as hard as he can. He can improve his riding skills as much as he can. But if the other rider(s) in the peloton doesn't have your back. When you do something stupid. Then it's all to no avail. Here hence something needs to shift. A lengthy and hard thing to do.

Don't be reckless rather relegate.

That is a start. But obviously not even that will become the standard over night.