Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Oldermanish]

Look it’s really not that complicated. Basically Rogla said two things yesterday:
1. He wanted to go to the Tour but could not come to the agreement with the team. The level of his desire to go to the Tour or the details why they couldn’t come together are unknown.
2. If he feels he doesn’t have sufficient support from TJV in the future, he will leave

Now whether that was a statement, a response or whatever is completely irrelevant. It’s what he said and it’s a solid basis for our discussion and I really don’t see why we shouldn’t analyse different scenarios here.

What you mentioned is complete speculation without any proof or indication whatsoever. Not to mention it belongs to the clinic anayway…

So you actually agree? Your item 1. doesn't have him seeking another team as some have implied. Good; that's sensible
2. I haven't seen that actual statement but it would be implicit whether he was casual enough to actually say those words. I doubt he would. If he did, his agent should sit him down because if a) he wins the Vuelta he has more reason to bargain for his schedule. b) If Jonas wins the Tour; he'll be 2nd seat.

As for the "motorized" bs; some other speculator suggested it could've happened and "money" would make other riders seek that path. IMO that's b.s. and baseless gossip. Much like extrapolating comments into actual business decisions.

 

[Gargamel35]

It's very simple really. JV is the best team for him. They gave him a chance no one else would. They rolled with him, they made him a millionaire. He also made them. He brought great results, recognition and sponsor money so they could develop even more and bring/develop more stars to build the team into what it is today (most powerful cycling team in the world). He's not a sole leader any more. There are others for smaller races, Wout for everything except 3 week GC, Jonas for 3 week GC and a side 1 week GC races and Primož for almost everything (Monuments are kind of hard for him to win).

You need to spread all the firepower to maximise your chances of winning. And if you want to win the biggest race of the year (TdF), you need to be on top of your game and beat everybody, including the competition in your team (and not to crash Primož). This year, i think JV wants to see what is Jonas made of. Team only for him and rouge Wout with Laporte for stage /green hunting. If he wins TdF again, he gets TdF ticket anytime in the future. That's how it is. Roglič can be there too and try to beat him, but maybe JV doesn't want that drama. If Jonas looses TdF (not by crash, but that he's simply not good enough - which i doubt), then both will go next year to maximize your options again.

For Primož there is just one thing to do. Be as good as possible. Be better then Jonas. That will give JV problems how to manage both men TdF aspirations.
But if you are not as good as your teammate, there is no real point going for the prize, since you can win so much other races instead of coming second or third in TdF again.

 

[bNator]

So you actually agree? Your item 1. doesn't have him seeking another team as some have implied. Good; that's sensible
2. I haven't seen that actual statement but it would be implicit whether he was casual enough to actually say those words. I doubt he would. If he did, his agent should sit him down because if a) he wins the Vuelta he has more reason to bargain for his schedule. b) If Jonas wins the Tour; he'll be 2nd seat.

As for the "motorized" bs; some other speculator suggested it could've happened and "money" would make other riders seek that path. IMO that's b.s. and baseless gossip. Much like extrapolating comments into actual business decisions.

Why so surprised when someone agrees with you? Sure I agree with some of your points. Not with all of them. It's not like we are at war or something...

Basically, the main thing we really don't agree on is you protesting on what he said and didn't say. When the entire time, there is apublically available video where you can see for yourself:
video of Roglic saying things Oldermanish says he didn't say

And since your last post we really really don't agree on the following:
Extrapolating Rogla's own statement into speculating "will he go/where will he go" = Speculating he is using mechanical doping

There is much more solid basis for the former (e.g. Roglič literally saying he may leave the team if he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now) than the latter.

 

[RedheadDane]

Here's a great picture of the star of the show:

And, look! His dad is there too.

 

[Luthor]

People who think Roglic is gonna have it better at another team are in for a rude awakening. Roglic had a lot of support from the team, especially Kuss, who is irreplaceable and is one of the few mountain domestiques who actually sacrifice their own chance. Arensman didn't sacrifice himself for G and that might have cost Ineos the Giro. How many domestiques would do what Kuss did on Bondone/Angliru or Wout in P-N?

I remember during the Giro when I criticised Ineos and UAE:

Thomas and Almeida are both riding like a podium place is good enough for them. Regardless if Roglic is seriously injured or not, they haven't tested him for real. They let him recover and that might be fatal in week 3. Roglic also has Kuss who once again could be decisive.

Ineos is a team with a lot of egos and people who want to go for their own chance. I expect a lot of friction if he goes there.
Best scenario is Jonas going Giro-Vuelta and Roglic Tour.
I think the future sponsor might have a lot of influence in these decisions. Giro is very important for the Italian market and if the sponsor has interest there, they might want to win again. Roglic clearly wants Tour and nothing else.

 

[Rob5091]

Jumbo do seem to be in a little quandary with Roglic - he'll be 34 next year and if he wants to do the Tour next year, how do they play it? I suppose if Pogacar wins the Tour this year, it'll seem logical to send Roglic & Vingegaard to the Tour next year, but if Vingegaard wins on his own? Tricky.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Here's a great picture of the star of the show:

And, look! His dad is there too.

Future Roglic will be even more legendary.

 

[Mayomaniac]

My impression is that Roglic really has no problem potentially riding for Vingegaard, if the later turns out to be stronger, but wants to start a gt as co-leader. Working for eachother really doesn't seem to be the problem with those 2, they seem to have a good relationship.

 

[Divergence]

My impression is that Roglic really has no problem potentially riding for Vingegaard, if the later turns out to be stronger, but wants to start a gt as co-leader. Working for eachother really doesn't seem to be the problem with those 2, they seem to have a good relationship.

Yes, but last year when Vingo had a problem they left Rog out to dry. Only Laporte with him (we do not know if he was even there when Rog crashed). The same thing happened in 21, the team was not around Rog at the critical stretch prior to Rog crashing. That is why he might feel disillusioned.
If Vingo is just better at a given race and drops Rog, then he probably would not have a problem helping him later. But we are yet to see that.

 

[bNator]

Yes, but last year when Vingo had a problem they left Rog out to dry. Only Laporte with him (we do not know if he was even there when Rog crashed). The same thing happened in 21, the team was not around Rog at the critical stretch prior to Rog crashing. That is why he might feel disillusioned.
If Vingo is just better at a given race and drops Rog, then he probably would not have a problem helping him later. But we are yet to see that.

But at least in 21 in was not a Vinge-Rogla relation that could bother Roglič as it was Vinge who sacrificed for Roglič on stage 5.

And even in 22, when it was obvious the team would choose Vinge over Roglic, I think that’s understandable. If they have to choose between the two leaders, they will choose the one that they believe is stronger at the moment.

I don’t know how Roglic feels about that, but getting a role of a protected rider which is left behind if the *** hits the fan is the most he can realistically expect at this point if Vinge is stronger than him. I would be seriously surprised if he has a problem with that.

 

[Nick2413]

Yes, but last year when Vingo had a problem they left Rog out to dry. Only Laporte with him (we do not know if he was even there when Rog crashed). The same thing happened in 21, the team was not around Rog at the critical stretch prior to Rog crashing. That is why he might feel disillusioned.
If Vingo is just better at a given race and drops Rog, then he probably would not have a problem helping him later. But we are yet to see that.

They have all their numbers and know who to hedge their bets on. It is what it is. I don’t think Rog is really upset about anything, he just wants more Tour chances and one of the guys who was supposed to be his domestique turned out to be even better than the guy who beat him in his best Tour.

 

[RedheadDane]

Future Roglic will be even more legendary.

But will he be a legendary pro cyclist, or a legendary skijumper?

 

[Divergence]

But at least in 21 in was not a Vinge-Rogla relation that could bother Roglič as it was Vinge who sacrificed for Roglič on stage 5.

And even in 22, when it was obvious the team would choose Vinge over Roglic, I think that’s understandable. If they have to choose between the two leaders, they will choose the one that they believe is stronger at the moment.

I don’t know how Roglic feels about that, but getting a role of a protected rider which is left behind if the *** hits the fan is the most he can realistically expect at this point if Vinge is stronger than him. I would be seriously surprised if he has a problem with that.

The thing is, it was not clear if Vingo was better than Rog at last year's TdF. If I were Rog I would have expected at least 2-3 guys with me even if Vingo has a problem. But, JV's problems began with Wout's nonsense during that stage so idk... At the end of the day Rog did not get to show his form neither in 21 nor in 22 at the TdF. Actually, he was quite good and beat Pog on stage 2 I believe at the 21 Tour, but then it was roles reversed the next day.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

But will he be a legendary pro cyclist, or a legendary skijumper?

Probably a legendary aeroplane.

 

[Red Rick]

The thing about 2022 is that they were both behind and Roglic had crashed and his health and thus viability as a contender were highly uncertain

 

[bNator]

The way I see it - the situation was simple. Either they both lose a minute+ or Vinge gets very close while Rogla loses a chunk of time while it is questionable if he can even continue. A correct decision was made IMO last year…

 

[Oldermanish]

Why so surprised when someone agrees with you? Sure I agree with some of your points. Not with all of them. It's not like we are at war or something...

Basically, the main thing we really don't agree on is you protesting on what he said and didn't say. When the entire time, there is apublically available video where you can see for yourself:
video of Roglic saying things Oldermanish says he didn't say

And since your last post we really really don't agree on the following:
Extrapolating Rogla's own statement into speculating "will he go/where will he go" = Speculating he is using mechanical doping

There is much more solid basis for the former (e.g. Roglič literally saying he may leave the team if he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now) than the latter.

OK. So we're generally in agreement except the direct comparison of what Roglic said. Primarily an English speaker I couldn't get much out of an interview largely not in English so I rely on your translation and nuance skills. You are saying "if he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now.." That's different context and it's appropriate for a solid pro to say that.

The mention of the "motorized" aids was an example of rumor being the basis for posts going nowhere. The whole, "where will Primoz go?" speculation ignores what other you and other considerate posters have noted: JV has served him well however clumsy some of the in-action support might have been. Personally I was depressed about the hay bale but JV's strategy supporting Vingo won a Tour. Roglic's heroic support, in spite of injury also helped win that Tour.
If he does eventually go to another squad he has earned the right to do it without much second guessing on our part. He's a serious Pro.

 

[Divergence]

The way I see it - the situation was simple. Either they both lose a minute+ or Vinge gets very close while Rogla loses a chunk of time while it is questionable if he can even continue. A correct decision was made IMO last year…

OK, but this was after both crashed. What about the support before Rog crashed?

 

[bNator]

OK. So we're generally in agreement except the direct comparison of what Roglic said. Primarily an English speaker I couldn't get much out of an interview largely not in English so I rely on your translation and nuance skills. You are saying "if he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now.." That's different context and it's appropriate for a solid pro to say that.

The mention of the "motorized" aids was an example of rumor being the basis for posts going nowhere. The whole, "where will Primoz go?" speculation ignores what other you and other considerate posters have noted: JV has served him well however clumsy some of the in-action support might have been. Personally I was depressed about the hay bale but JV's strategy supporting Vingo won a Tour. Roglic's heroic support, in spite of injury also helped win that Tour.
If he does eventually go to another squad he has earned the right to do it without much second guessing on our part. He's a serious Pro.

Yes, it was put more like that. But you don't have to rely only on my translation for that. "If he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now" is just me summing up the original translation from twitter which was posted by @Rackham:

"Primož: However, at some point, if we are no longer able to fulfill my desires or my goals, then perhaps I would have to find someone, if there is anyone, where I could do that."

I (meaning Chat GPT) was doing the translation of the other bit - the one where he says he wanted to go to France on "vacation"... And that translation was done word-for-word by chat gpt, me just making sure it relays the same idea as the original slovenian transcription.

OK, but this was after both crashed. What about the support before Rog crashed?

Good point. But let's say there's some benefit of doubt here regarding TJV. They may have had internal data where it was clear Vinge is better prepared and had better "numbers" at the time. Ok maybe they could be a littlebit less ambitious with their stage hunting with Wout in which case there may have been enough support for the both of them preventing Rogla from crashing - but I don't see that as basis for changing teams. Provided Vinge's training numbers were clearly better, of course... Them not wanting Roglič in the team this year is, at least for me, a much bigger issue.

Bottom line: I would be screaming from joy that he even wants to go, knowing he would most likely be in a support role by the third week of the Tour. Reasons that make sense to me (not taking him) are the following:
1. They are afraid Roglič will take some focus away from the goal of winning with Vinge, even if he is just a protected rider.
2. They are afraid Roglič would lose motivation if he sees he can't compete with the two, abandoning the Tour.
3. They want to race this Tour a-la Sky, building as long train as possible. And Rogla is not a very good train participant.
4. They are very confident in Vinge winning and want to win all thre GTs in one season.

The last one actually does make a lot of sense but I'm afraid Pog will want to have a say in that. That was a figure of speech. I'm not afraid one bit. I'm rather hoping for it

 

[Divergence]

Yes, it was put more like that. But you don't have to rely only on my translation for that. "If he doesn't get the same support in the future as he did now" is just me summing up the original translation from twitter which was posted by @Rackham:

"Primož: However, at some point, if we are no longer able to fulfill my desires or my goals, then perhaps I would have to find someone, if there is anyone, where I could do that."

I (meaning Chat GPT) was doing the translation of the other bit - the one where he says he wanted to go to France on "vacation"... And that translation was done word-for-word by chat gpt, me just making sure it relays the same idea as the original slovenian transcription.

Good point. But let's say there's some benefit of doubt here regarding TJV. They may have had internal data where it was clear Vinge is better prepared and had better "numbers" at the time. Ok maybe they could be a littlebit less ambitious with their stage hunting with Wout in which case there may have been enough support for the both of them preventing Rogla from crashing - but I don't see that as basis for changing teams. Provided Vinge's training numbers were clearly better, of course... Them not wanting Roglič in the team this year is, at least for me, a much bigger issue.

Bottom line: I would be screaming from joy that he even wants to go, knowing he would most likely be in a support role by the third week of the Tour. Reasons that make sense to me (not taking him) are the following:
1. They are afraid Roglič will take some focus away from the goal of winning with Vinge, even if he is just a protected rider.
2. They are afraid Roglič would lose motivation if he sees he can't compete with the two, abandoning the Tour.
3. They want to race this Tour a-la Sky, building as long train as possible. And Rogla is not a very good train participant.
4. They are very confident in Vinge winning and want to win all thre GTs in one season.

The last one actually does make a lot of sense but I'm afraid Pog will want to have a say in that. That was a figure of speech. I'm not afraid one bit. I'm rather hoping for it

I believe numbers are one thing and performance is another. Of course, they are not completely unrelated, but a pure 20min test is not enough to determine who is better. Besides, the only reason cycling fans believe Vingo was stronger last year is because of the stage at the Dauphine where it looked like Rog barely held on to Vingo's wheel. Fair enough, but Rog was better at a previous stage where he was chasing Verona I believe.
If one has all of this in mind and the fact that Rog's sole objective was the Tour last year (even though he had that niggle with his knee) it must have been pretty infuriating for him (at least it would have been for me had I been in his place) to only see a Laporte besides him (we do not know if he even was there in the kilometers before Rog's crash).
To conclude, JV did not support their best rider when he was targeting a race and this year they were not just that little bit flexible to make sure their best rider is satisfied (besides all the talk from Rog how he and the team are great, I believe he does not say anything about him wanting to go to the Tour publicly if he was happy with the decision).
One might say they made the right decision with Vingo last year, but who is to say Rog would not have been even better and they would have not gotten a 1-2 at Tour. Also, Rog played a huge part is Pog's demise.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So La Vuelta it is then.

Route looks suited for Rogla. Although it looks like Rogla matured and sacrificed a bit of stomp. For a bit more freshness down the road. Maybe he will still decide and do one or two for the fans. Due to a whole lot of MTFs involved.

Likely Kuss won't participate or might not be in optimal shape. We'll see. Here the team has some work left to do. To not leave Rogla hanging.

The time frame for Rogla to prepare properly is good. With Vuelta it's rather safe to say Rogla will be preparing and will go for overall, as a team leader, with a rather low level of partial interest in the team involved. If Rogla wins then it's a GT double this season!

As for the Tour. Pogi vs Jonas it is then. Let the best one win. Personally i like the fact July will be less intense for me. Still feel the Giro and it will take some time to process the death of Gino. Can't really be happy with anything involving cycling ATM. Am slowly starting to train to be in good shape for Vuelta.

As for switching teams. As Rogla said currently there is no real need for that. Future on the other hand is something that still needs to be written. Obviously at some point Roglič will want to again attempt to win the Tour, participating there as a team leader and with a dedicated team support. At Tour 2023 van Aert with dedicated help and Jonas riding for overall ... If you add Rogla to the mix. Likely getting a spare bike would become a realistic issue. We seen at Giro on just how important was for the team to always be there. The same level of support will be needed for the Tour too. A challenge for JV. Tour 2023 should give some answers in this regard.

 

[ZamlinusYoutubeious]

I think he crash just as much as Denis Menchov as a GC guy. Their gt wins also kinds seems similar but Roglic haven't crashed going uphill.

😃😋

 

[johnymax]

I think he crash just as much as Denis Menchov as a GC guy. Their gt wins also kinds seems similar but Roglic haven't crashed going uphill.

😃😋

He has. In Tour de France 2017, on the stage he won he crashed going uphill at the beginning of the stage. Also in Tirreno 2018 he fell out of GC because of the crash on a climb. A couple of days later he won a stage with a super attack on a muro.

 

[ZamlinusYoutubeious]

He has. In Tour de France 2017, on the stage he won he crashed going uphill at the beginning of the stage. Also in Tirreno 2018 he fell out of GC because of the crash on a climb. A couple of days later he won a stage with a super attack on a muro.

There you go. He is the new Menchov. 😃I was off cycling starting from 2015 and started getting interested again only after the rise of Pog and seriously into it like ..you know..regularly on forum and twitter again after last year's world championahip.

 

[CyclistAbi]