Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Miss Violet Smith]

Roglič at 0:54, happily: Hellaaaa, green jersey! (whistles)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1798401039043035539

View: https://x.com/BORAhansgrohe/status/1798401039043035539?t=qzjXZG2m2BtTJLdJ13dg2g&s=19

 

[zlev11]

The most famous example for either side of the spectrum is the 2021 Vuelta when Bernal attacked, Roglic followed, and then refused to pull until they got into the valley despite the group staying away favoring him. Roglic and Evenepoel last year is a poor choice since Evenepoel was his direct rival so had no reason to assist him and potentially lose time to Roglic.

"refused to pull until they got to the valley"? so he followed him on the descent then? you realize the part of the stage where pulling makes the most difference is on the flat in the valley right? Roglic's pulls on that stage were legendary.

we had this argument already about this stage once before and you're still here spewing BS about it. he followed Bernal on the climb for like 5k and then followed him down a twisty wet descent that had a bunch of crashes. once he got to the downhill false flat he took monster pulls increasing the gap the whole time. there was nothing you can fault him for on that stage.

 

[topcat]

saw him in the malaga airport last friday (along with some of his teammates). didn't want to bother him with a photo or whatever, just nodded at him with a smile which he answered back. cheers for this guy.
although he's in the twilight of his career, considering his age, I really hope he can get a Tour win this year.

Did you shout wheelsucker at him?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Did you shout wheelsucker at him?

It wasn't an Irish airport.

 

[bNator]

"refused to pull until they got to the valley"? so he followed him on the descent then? you realize the part of the stage where pulling makes the most difference is on the flat in the valley right? Roglic's pulls on that stage were legendary.

we had this argument already about this stage once before and you're still here spewing BS about it. he followed Bernal on the climb for like 5k and then followed him down a twisty wet descent that had a bunch of crashes. once he got to the downhill false flat he took monster pulls increasing the gap the whole time. there was nothing you can fault him for on that stage.

Yes, this is how i remember it as well. And to be honest, it would be kind of stupid for Rogla to pull before he was certain he was stronger than Bernal. After all, it was Bernal who launched a pretty big attack and it's normal to try and asses the situation before pulling like and idiot just to get dropped seconds later, not to mention the crashing down the descent. Even the great Wizard of Visma waited through Galibier to launch on Granon and I doubt there's a living soul claiming he did anything but perfect tactics on that day...

Once Rogla was confident he wasn't getting dropped by Bernal or crashing on the descent, he did the majority of the pulling in the valley and did not even try to trick Bernal into getting dropped by inviting him to pull once the climb began again. Instead, he pulled the best he could without trying to drop Bernal.

 

[zlev11]

Yes, this is how i remember it as well. And to be honest, it would be kind of stupid for Rogla to pull before he was certain he was stronger than Bernal. After all, it was Bernal who launched a pretty big attack and it's normal to try and asses the situation before pulling like and idiot just to get dropped seconds later, not to mention the crashing down the descent. Even the great Wizard of Visma waited through Galibier to launch on Granon and I doubt there's a living soul claiming he did anything but perfect tactics on that day...

Once Rogla was confident he wasn't getting dropped by Bernal or crashing on the descent, he did the majority of the pulling in the valley and did not even try to trick Bernal into getting dropped by inviting him to pull once the climb began again. Instead, he pulled the best he could without trying to drop Bernal.

yes, he already had almost 3 minutes on Bernal and had two teammates still in the group. he didn't even have to go with Bernal. there was nearly 40k of false flat and flat road between the descent and the final climb, Bernal by himself would've had no chance of getting any significant time on him.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This TT was perfect for Roglic and he didn’t deliver a good performance IMHO. A 49 km/h TT is a rolling TT and a superb Roglic is probably a top3 time triallist in this type of TT.

 

[will-10]

This TT was perfect for Roglic and he didn’t deliver a good performance IMHO. A 49 km/h TT is a rolling TT and a superb Roglic is probably a top3 time triallist in this type of TT.

He finished 3rd bro

 

[rm2021]

This TT was perfect for Roglic and he didn’t deliver a good performance IMHO. A 49 km/h TT is a rolling TT and a superb Roglic is probably a top3 time triallist in this type of TT.

He did a good time trial. The gap to evenepoel was predictable. It wasn' so hilly.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He finished 3rd bro

He was 5th in LPBF, do you think it was a good TT?
It is not about being third, I didn't expect a 39s gap to Remco in a rolling TT. He is an olympic champion in a rolling TT. If it was a flat TT, I would expect Remco to demolish Roglic, not in this type of TT.

 

[SHAD0W93]

"refused to pull until they got to the valley"? so he followed him on the descent then? you realize the part of the stage where pulling makes the most difference is on the flat in the valley right? Roglic's pulls on that stage were legendary.

we had this argument already about this stage once before and you're still here spewing BS about it. he followed Bernal on the climb for like 5k and then followed him down a twisty wet descent that had a bunch of crashes. once he got to the downhill false flat he took monster pulls increasing the gap the whole time. there was nothing you can fault him for on that stage.

Go back and watch the stage, Bernal asked Roglic multiple times to help and he never did until he was sure they were staying away. Bernal also almost crashed himself and Roglic a few times on the descent, which from Roglic’s perspective he’s safer in the front and he’s the better descender. And yes he started riding in the valley, when the others didn’t have anyone to bring he and Bernal back plus his own two teammates to cover in case there is attacks. Roglic only worked when he was sure he’d stay away, which was the only point of the first post.

That’s the point. Is it smart, yes. Did he need to ride with Bernal, no. Yet this stage is always brought up of Roglic attacking when he’s going for GC by his fans.

 

[zlev11]

Go back and watch the stage, Bernal asked Roglic multiple times to help and he never did until he was sure they were staying away. Bernal also almost crashed himself and Roglic a few times on the descent, which from Roglic’s perspective he’s safer in the front and he’s the better descender. That’s the point. Is it smart, yes. Did he need to ride with Bernal, no. Yet this stage is always brought up of Roglic attacking when he’s going for GC by his fans.

don't tell me to go back and watch the stage, i watch it all the time. you're the person who needs to rewatch the stage. Bernal asks him to start working 10km after the top of the climb (right when the steep technical descent was over, 46k to go) and Roglic immediately starts pulling. the gap goes from 1:00 to 2:20 in the next 25k.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think you don’t understand the concept of wheelsucking. It’s not just whenever you ride behind someone…

I absolutely understand the concept, perhaps not your specific assignment to riders as a negative characteristic.
If you ride at length behind someone to save energy you are wheelsucking. It is not a negative unless the guy doing the pulling ahead doesn't appreciate the lack of work or you're a fan of a rider that chronically provides that service to someone that beats them. Then the negative is providing the towing service to an adversary or making excuses for the towtruckdonkey.

 

[SHAD0W93]

don't tell me to go back and watch the stage, i watch it all the time. you're the person who needs to rewatch the stage. Bernal asks him to start working 10km after the top of the climb (right when the steep technical descent was over, 46k to go) and Roglic immediately starts pulling. the gap goes from 1:00 to 2:20 in the next 25k.

Yes, again Roglic started pulling when he knew they weren’t getting caught and the group behind didn’t have anyone to help chase causing the gap to go out. Which is the point of the original post. Thank you.

 

[Oldermanish]

He's expected to be one of 2-3 best climbers (or even the best) but distancing Remco may actually be quite difficult (if the Belgian can replicate this performance on climbs).

All things being equal it may be difficult for either of them to be super dominant on climbs unless all of the other players are aggressive. We're halfway through the race and Remco and Primoz have ridden as expected, more or less. They may not be that far apart on form at all; which is great to see in terms of their individual recovery.
If either of them is very strong on the climbs it may just get down to who has enough miles in at this point. I can't tell although Remco should have lost more form due to his more severe injury.
The really good news is the top three look ready to step up to the Tour. Who else will emerge?

 

[Oldermanish]

Sure, and just ignore everything else. Also I’m not the only one, multiple people called him a wheelsucker.

Multiple people that haven't raced can have an opinion. Anyone that's been in a serious break will know that complaining about it is useless. Especially if you've attacked someone who subsequently caught up with other riders in the group.
If they have the temerity to win the stage that might really sting or be a lesson: STFU and pull or not pull.

Ask Bardet how many times he's made an opportunistic move on a climb and the then theatrically gestured for a catching chaser to immediately begin towing him. What response did he get aside from polite laughter?

 

[zlev11]

Yes, again Roglic started pulling when he knew they weren’t getting caught and the group behind didn’t have anyone to help chase causing the gap to go out. Which is the point of the original post. Thank you.

do you know anything about cycling? you think he knew they WEREN'T GETTING CAUGHT when they only had a 1 minute lead with 30k of false flat/flat before a monster final climb? surely you can't be that dumb, right? i hope you're just being an extremely disingenuous troll. it took extreme risk to commit to that move while already being the best placed GC rider (with let's face it, no real threat from behind with a 34k TT coming up). Vingegaard, who everyone thinks is a great attacking rider, only ever does long range attacks like this in grand tours when he knows he has WVA up the road to tow him through the valleys.

 

[SHAD0W93]

do you know anything about cycling? you think he knew they WEREN'T GETTING CAUGHT when they only had a 1 minute lead with 30k of false flat/flat before a monster final climb? surely you can't be that dumb, right? i hope you're just being an extremely disingenuous troll. it took extreme risk to commit to that move while already being the best placed GC rider (with let's face it, no real threat from behind with a 34k TT coming up). Vingegaard, who everyone thinks is a great attacking rider, only ever does long range attacks like this in grand tours when he knows he has WVA up the road to tow him through the valleys.

You don’t think riders can get information on the group behind and assess if they’re going to be caught or not? Who was going to chase and bring them back? There was no one to help and Movistar and Bahrain weren’t sacrificing one of their leaders to bring them back, Bernal had Adam and Roglic had two teammates in the group to cover any attacks that occurred.

What extreme risk? Roglic was the superior rider that year and had showed it repeatedly. He still had two teammates behind and Bernal was the one doing the work. Roglic could have just sat on Bernal’s wheel the whole way and still boss the group on the climb when they get caught and his teammates take over pacing. Or he could have sat in the group and seen what the others did and have his teammates pace if needed while Bernal was on his own. You can even argue it benefited him being with Bernal due to not having the double team attacks from Ineos, Bahrain, and Movistar that could occur. It was a great performance by Roglic, but one that has multiple face values.


Don’t forget Vingegaard also needed Roglic to soften up the opponent on an occasion.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

do you know anything about cycling? you think he knew they WEREN'T GETTING CAUGHT when they only had a 1 minute lead with 30k of false flat/flat before a monster final climb? surely you can't be that dumb, right? i hope you're just being an extremely disingenuous troll. it took extreme risk to commit to that move while already being the best placed GC rider (with let's face it, no real threat from behind with a 34k TT coming up). Vingegaard, who everyone thinks is a great attacking rider, only ever does long range attacks like this in grand tours when he knows he has WVA up the road to tow him through the valleys.

Okay, I think extreme risk is a bit much, no? He was the strongest GC rider and with a TT to come, he also already had a buffer that would mean he could even afford to lose time. The only real risk when he‘s feeling good and the escape isn’t many hours long is that he doesn‘t eat enough and bonks. (Or that Wout Poels turns into prime Indurain, crushing the flat and the climb and Roglič‘s LEGENDARY pulls on the flat have killed his legs and he gets stomped by Enric Mas) The risk he took was unnecessary, but I don‘t think it was extreme and that he was wandering too close to the edge. I think you‘re being ridiculously hysterical here.

 

[johnymax]

Yes, again Roglic started pulling when he knew they weren’t getting caught and the group behind didn’t have anyone to help chase causing the gap to go out. Which is the point of the original post. Thank you.

I think you need to rewatch the stage. I mean, Bernal attacked Roglič from afar showing great daily form, strength and confidence. Why would Roglič help a rider who is attacking him on the penultimate climb? Bernal was going full gas on that climb and was trying to drop Roglič. He didn't even look back at him until very late, close to the top of the climb and then continued pacing on the descent. In a couple of turns he missed the line so Rogla overtook him for a couple of minutes, but then again Bernal wanted to take control on the descent. Immediately when they reached the false flat/ flat Roglič started taking turns. His turns became stronger and longer as the stage progressed and in the end it was Bernal who didn't give him turns as the road started raising.

And what do you mean with "he only started pulling when he knew the group wasn't getting caught" ? Bernal got caught, wasn't he?

Also it's not true that there was noone to chase in the group behind. Bahrain was pulling hard with Caruso, Poels and later Mader. Cofidis was also pulling with Rochas and if I'm not mistaken Bora also gave some turns at the front.

This was one of the worst examples of Roglič wheelsucking. That stage was a Rogla masterpiece and one of his most epic wins.

 

[lenric]

Did you shout wheelsucker at him?

nah... but I considered saying something like "hey man, you better beat that danish guy!"

 

[zlev11]

Okay, I think extreme risk is a bit much, no? He was the strongest GC rider and with a TT to come, he also already had a buffer that would mean he could even afford to lose time. The only real risk when he‘s feeling good and the escape isn’t many hours long is that he doesn‘t eat enough and bonks. (Or that Wout Poels turns into prime Indurain, crushing the flat and the climb and Roglič‘s LEGENDARY pulls on the flat have killed his legs and he gets stomped by Enric Mas) The risk he took was unnecessary, but I don‘t think it was extreme and that he was wandering too close to the edge. I think you‘re being ridiculously hysterical here.

it was an extreme risk because he could've easily blown up on the climb after riding so hard in the wind on the flat and he didn't have to do it at all, like you said he already had a lead with another TT coming up.

 

[johnymax]

Okay, I think extreme risk is a bit much, no? He was the strongest GC rider and with a TT to come, he also already had a buffer that would mean he could even afford to lose time. The only real risk when he‘s feeling good and the escape isn’t many hours long is that he doesn‘t eat enough and bonks. (Or that Wout Poels turns into prime Indurain, crushing the flat and the climb and Roglič‘s LEGENDARY pulls on the flat have killed his legs and he gets stomped by Enric Mas) The risk he took was unnecessary, but I don‘t think it was extreme and that he was wandering too close to the edge. I think you‘re being ridiculously hysterical here.

I remember reading the thread of that stage and at the time everyone was writing what an idiot he is, what is he doing, why is he going with Bernal, it doesn't make sense, he should have stayed in the group, etc...

 

[SHAD0W93]

I think you need to rewatch the stage. I mean, Bernal attacked Roglič from afar showing great daily form, strength and confidence. Why would Roglič help a rider who is attacking him on the penultimate climb? Bernal was going full gas on that climb and was trying to drop Roglič. He didn't even look back at him until very late, close to the top of the climb and then continued pacing on the descent. In a couple of turns he missed the line so Rogla overtook him for a couple of minutes, but then again Bernal wanted to take control on the descent. Immediately when they reached the false flat/ flat Roglič started taking turns. His turns became stronger and longer as the stage progressed and in the end it was Bernal who didn't give him turns as the road started raising.

And what do you mean with "he only started pulling when he knew the group wasn't getting caught" ? Bernal got caught, wasn't he?

Also it's not true that there was noone to chase in the group behind. Bahrain was pulling hard with Caruso, Poels and later Mader. Cofidis was also pulling with Rochas and if I'm not mistaken Bora also gave some turns at the front.

This was one of the worst examples of Roglič wheelsucking. That stage was a Rogla masterpiece and one of his most epic wins.

No he didn’t have to follow Bernal but one can argue it was a smart move since then he didn’t have to worry about being double attacked by three teams. Bernal was trying to use Ineos’s numbers, move up in GC with the TT coming up, and had already said he’s going to attack because he has nothing to lose.

Roglic is the superior rider to Caruso, Poels, and Rochas. They weren’t bringing them back unless Roglic didn’t ride or blew up. But he felt and was great that day.

Bernal got caught on the climb after he cracked, that’s why he stopped helping and Roglic rode off to the finish alone. Roglic had three choices; let Bernal do all the work and they get caught, give some help and most likely get caught, or use his superior talent on this sort of terrain to help stay away and make it hard to catch them.


I never said Roglic was a wheelsucker nor did I use this as an example that he was. It was a reply to Red Rick saying Roglic never skips turns if a rider is in front and I expanded upon it.

It was an epic win and the cherry on top was Kuss getting second. The stage highlighted how superior Roglic was to the others and in my opinion, his strongest showing GT win.

I remember reading the thread of that stage and at the time everyone was writing what an idiot he is, what is he doing, why is he going with Bernal, it doesn't make sense, he should have stayed in the group, etc...

That is true, most thought it was ridiculous by Roglic till the final climb started.

 

[bNator]

If it’s of any help solving your debate, it was Bernal who called Roglic “valente” (brave) in a post-race interview. That’s gotta count for something…

Yes, it was perhaps not all-in attack (as it shouldn’t be in that kind of situation) but it was brave nevertheless.