Fatigued = less Doping?

[IndianCyclist]

This is the first time i think top riders are citing fatigue as a reason for drop in form and to rest.
Cancellara - Got fatigued after Paris Roubaix so much that he is not in Giro
Contador - Tired so much skipped Amstel, didn't have legs in Fleche.
Sagan - Skipped Roubaix unable to meet expectations in Ardennes. feeling heat effects.
Gilbert - Skipped Roubaix. No more triple. Will be fortunate if he wins one Ardennes Classics
Porte - Dropped in Fleche.
Other examples?
There appears to be a pattern here. Usually they would be participating in every race and winning some of them. But based on the results so far, it looks like the top riders have become more human that they are getting beaten by the second level of riders. Does this equate to less doping? I suspect this to be the fallout of the USADA ruling that nobody is trusting anyone else with their secrets thereby having less opportunity to dope. Hence this appears to be more or less the natural state of the riders which means they can't win everything and are getting tired. I suspect a surprise again for Liege.

 

[D-Queued]

Fatigue = extraction.

Dave.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Yep.
It could be removal of blood for later in the season.


Or it could be actual fatigue for clean riders.

 

[the sceptic]

What about team sky dominating all year round without showing any hint of fatigue?

Just because some riders are off form doesnt mean the peloton is any cleaner.

Mur de Huy
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)-RECORD
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Evans-Rodriguez-Contador)
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---average speed 21.67 km/h(Davide Rebellin)
2008:1 km@11,1%---3:02---average speed 19.78 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

Doesnt look like everyone stopped doping in 2008 to me.

 

[maxmartin]

This is the first time i think top riders are citing fatigue as a reason for drop in form and to rest.
Cancellara - Got fatigued after Paris Roubaix so much that he is not in Giro
Contador - Tired so much skipped Amstel, didn't have legs in Fleche.
Sagan - Skipped Roubaix unable to meet expectations in Ardennes. feeling heat effects.
Gilbert - Skipped Roubaix. No more triple. Will be fortunate if he wins one Ardennes Classics
Porte - Dropped in Fleche.
Other examples?
There appears to be a pattern here. Usually they would be participating in every race and winning some of them. But based on the results so far, it looks like the top riders have become more human that they are getting beaten by the second level of riders. Does this equate to less doping? I suspect this to be the fallout of the USADA ruling that nobody is trusting anyone else with their secrets thereby having less opportunity to dope. Hence this appears to be more or less the natural state of the riders which means they can't win everything and are getting tired. I suspect a surprise again for Liege.

Fatigue is needed preparation for later big success.

 

[maxmartin]

What about team sky dominating all year round without showing any hint of fatigue?

Just because some riders are off form doesnt mean the peloton is any cleaner.

Mur de Huy
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)-RECORD
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Evans-Rodriguez-Contador)
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---average speed 21.67 km/h(Davide Rebellin)
2008:1 km@11,1%---3:02---average speed 19.78 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

Doesnt look like everyone stopped doping in 2008 to me.

Only idiots believe dope stopped, just take a look at UK postal team. Riding away with peloton with ease.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is the first time i think top riders are citing fatigue as a reason for drop in form and to rest.
Cancellara - Got fatigued after Paris Roubaix so much that he is not in Giro
Contador - Tired so much skipped Amstel, didn't have legs in Fleche.
Sagan - Skipped Roubaix unable to meet expectations in Ardennes. feeling heat effects.
Gilbert - Skipped Roubaix. No more triple. Will be fortunate if he wins one Ardennes Classics
Porte - Dropped in Fleche.
Other examples?
There appears to be a pattern here. Usually they would be participating in every race and winning some of them. But based on the results so far, it looks like the top riders have become more human that they are getting beaten by the second level of riders. Does this equate to less doping? I suspect this to be the fallout of the USADA ruling that nobody is trusting anyone else with their secrets thereby having less opportunity to dope. Hence this appears to be more or less the natural state of the riders which means they can't win everything and are getting tired. I suspect a surprise again for Liege.

It hurt even more on Wednesday during the shoot-out at Alpe d’Huez when we witnessed the scenes that had once made the race so special. Rewind the tape and the truth is in the pain; the mouths gaping for breath; the eyes rolling with tiredness; the exhausted portrait of the Austrian Bernard Kohl - second overall and King of the Mountains - as he collapsed after crossing the line. The moment of the race.
But not everyone was pleased. No, back in the press room, some of the muppets who had glorified the Robo-cop years were bemoaning the lack of “spectacle”. They had spent so much time with their heads up the arses of the cheats, they had forgotten:this is how it looks when it’s clean.
Now there’s a chance I have been completely suckered on this. There’s a chance the winner will prove to be a clever doper and that I’ll appear a fool. And that’s not a chance I’d have taken before I met Vaughters. But these past 27 days with his team have taught me a valuable lesson.
I’ve spent a good portion of my past 20 years enraged by dopers such as Virenque, Riis, Ivan Basso and Hamilton and seized every opportunity to expose them. No apologies. They deserve our contempt . . . but not as much as the guys who are trying to compete clean deserve our support.

Paul Kimmage, 2008.

 

[D-Queued]

...Now there’s a chance I have been completely suckered on this. ...

Paul Kimmage, 2008.

Yes, fast forward a couple of years and the SKY bird of paradise then crapped on his head and reminded him of reality.

Dave.

 

[Viking]

What about team sky dominating all year round without showing any hint of fatigue?

Just because some riders are off form doesnt mean the peloton is any cleaner.

Mur de Huy
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)-RECORD
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Evans-Rodriguez-Contador)
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---average speed 21.67 km/h(Davide Rebellin)
2008:1 km@11,1%---3:02---average speed 19.78 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

Doesnt look like everyone stopped doping in 2008 to me.

Those times/average speeds alone can be misleading without the context of how the race unfolded. That doesn't mean they're not all still doped to superhuman levels, of course, just an observation.

 

[Lanark]

Those times/average speeds alone can be misleading without the context of how the race unfolded. That doesn't mean they're not all still doped to superhuman levels, of course, just an observation.

All races were exactly the same, except in 2008 when it was terrible weather.

 

[TheGame]

What about team sky dominating all year round without showing any hint of fatigue?

Just because some riders are off form doesnt mean the peloton is any cleaner.

Mur de Huy
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)-RECORD
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Evans-Rodriguez-Contador)
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---average speed 21.67 km/h(Davide Rebellin)
2008:1 km@11,1%---3:02---average speed 19.78 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

Doesnt look like everyone stopped doping in 2008 to me.

Utter ********. No account at all made for the pace of the race before the final climb. And how on earth can you judge doping based on 1 kilometre?

 

[Netserk]

Utter ********. No account at all made for the pace of the race before the final climb. And how on earth can you judge doping based on 1 kilometre?

FW is pretty much always the same since 2004. Except for the weather.

 

[zachateseverything]

FW is pretty much always the same since 2004. Except for the weather.

It doesn't matter that the course is the same every year. The dynamics of the race itself will have a big impact on how fast guys are on the last climb. Are a bunch of guys hitting the last climb fresh after hiding from the wind all day? Is a rider on a long solo attack? has the lead group been attacking each other into oblivion for the last 10k? Those details matter a lot.

Also looking at a short and steep climb like that won't give you a great indication of blood doping anyway. A sub 3 minute effort or less has a significant anaerobic component.

 

[Netserk]

It doesn't matter that the course is the same every year. The dynamics of the race itself will have a big impact on how fast guys are on the last climb. Are a bunch of guys hitting the last climb fresh after hiding from the wind all day? Is a rider on a long solo attack? has the lead group been attacking each other into oblivion for the last 10k? Those details matter a lot.

Also looking at a short and steep climb like that won't give you a great indication of blood doping anyway. A sub 3 minute effort or less has a significant anaerobic component.

It's pretty much always the same as in it is raced the same way every year. Everyone waits for the Mur.

And none of the favourites attack outside the red kite.

So it is very comparable from year to year.

 

[BroDeal]

It doesn't matter that the course is the same every year. The dynamics of the race itself will have a big impact on how fast guys are on the last climb. Are a bunch of guys hitting the last climb fresh after hiding from the wind all day? Is a rider on a long solo attack? has the lead group been attacking each other into oblivion for the last 10k? Those details matter a lot.

Also looking at a short and steep climb like that won't give you a great indication of blood doping anyway. A sub 3 minute effort or less has a significant anaerobic component.

In the other thread times for the last twenty years were posted. Looked at collectively the data is interesting even if conclusions cannot be drawn for any single year. We can see the following trends:

1) The best times are a who's who of dopers until recent years.

2) The times during the heyday of EPO doping when there was no hematocrit limit and riders were racing at 60% are slower than the times since the peloton supposedly cleaned itself up.

3) The amount of the speed increase from the heyday to now is huge. It is roughly 10% if we use 3:05 -> 2:45.

4) This does not look normal.

At three minutes the effort will be mostly aerobic at the end.

 

[Netserk]

In the other thread times for the last twenty years were posted. Looked at collectively the data is interesting even if conclusions cannot be drawn for any single year. We can see the following trends:

1) The best times are a who's who of dopers until recent years.

2) The times during the heyday of EPO doping when there was no hematocrit limit and riders were racing at 60% are slower than the times since the peloton supposedly cleaned itself up.

3) The amount of the speed increase from the heyday to now is huge. It is roughly 10% if we use 3:05 -> 2:45.

4) This does not look normal.

At three minutes the effort will be mostly aerobic at the end.

It's only been a bunch sprint since '04. You can't compare the times before that with those after.

 

[zachateseverything]

It's pretty much always the same as in it is raced the same way every year. Everyone waits for the Mur.

And none of the favourites attack outside the red kite.

So it is very comparable from year to year.

It doesn't matter much if the favorites attack outside the kite or not, if someone is at the front of the peloton drilling the pace on a climb it'll fatigue everyone. Keep the pace high and no one can attack.

Total race times have varied between 4:35 and 4:52 for the past 6 years. Not surprisingly, the slowest race resulted in the fastest time on the Mur and the fastest race resulted in the slowest time on the Mur. Race dynamics mater.

Maybe this really just means that trying to infer something about the overall level of doping in the Peloton based on a single 1k climb is a bad idea.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Only idiots believe dope stopped, just take a look at UK postal team. Riding away with peloton with ease.

Except in the classics. They are the ones who are getting dropped by the peloton. Doping should be benefiting in all terrains period. There are enough examples in the Dope Era of this. It is inexplicable as to how they are succeeding only in the stage races They have good riders for both stage races as well as classics. None of their riders are though of legendary potential.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Fatigue = extraction.

Dave.

Logically I think extraction would be done in the training period not during important races. There is a possibility of real fatigue due to simply racing with less dope.

What about team sky dominating all year round without showing any hint of fatigue?

Just because some riders are off form doesnt mean the peloton is any cleaner.

Mur de Huy
2013:1 km@11,1%---2:48---average speed 21.43 km/h(Daniel Moreno)
2012:1 km@11,1%---3:00---average speed 20.00 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
2011:1 km@11,1%---2:44---average speed 21.95 km/h(Philippe Gilbert)-RECORD
2010:1 km@11,1%---2:45---average speed 21.82 km/h(Evans-Rodriguez-Contador)
2009:1 km@11,1%---2:46---average speed 21.67 km/h(Davide Rebellin)
2008:1 km@11,1%---3:02---average speed 19.78 km/h(Kim Kirchen)

Doesnt look like everyone stopped doping in 2008 to me.

True but looking at one race may not help in deciding about fatigue. Look at the speed at Roubaix- second fastest in history. But earlier that did not prevent riders from participating and winning race after race.

 

[D-Queued]

Logically I think extraction would be done in the training period not during important races. There is a possibility of real fatigue due to simply racing with less dope.



True but looking at one race may not help in deciding about fatigue. Look at the speed at Roubaix- second fastest in history. But earlier that did not prevent riders from participating and winning race after race.

My remark was flippant, but with a grain of truth.

Typically extractions for big event re-infusions happen now/at the 'training' races.

Almost certainly to coincide with 'clean' blood opportunities (i.e. little to no PEDs in the system), blood aging manipulation (e.g. blood bag before the training race) as well as EPO-enhanced recovery schedules.

Dave.

 

[42x16ss]

Fatigue = extraction.

Dave.

Yeah, extraction is the only possible reason. Nothing to with the fact Porte has been going hard since Algarve, Cancellara and Sagan since Qatar, Gilbert since TdU and Contador since San Luis.

Nothing at all to do with fatigue whatsoever.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah, extraction is the only possible reason. Nothing to with the fact Porte has been going hard since Algarve, Cancellara and Sagan since Qatar, Gilbert since TdU and Contador since San Luis.

Nothing at all to do with fatigue whatsoever.

Didn't they peak all year, last year?

Occam's razor.

Dave.

 

[42x16ss]

Didn't they peak all year, last year?

Occam's razor.

Dave.

??? Porte skipped the Giro for the Tour and was fried at the Vuelta like Froome. Gilbert and Sagan took a break after the Ardennes last year as well. Cancellara had a broken collarbone at Flanders. Contador was suspended.

Yep, that sounds like a full season peak to me too.

Edit: Chances are they will extract for later in the season sometime soon but with Porte, Sagan and Cancellara racing at 100% like they have been and Gilbert and Contador going all out chasing form, they'll be stuffed! These guys are still human.

 

[Miburo]

FW is pretty much always the same since 2004. Except for the weather.

Not true, remember 2007 edition. Favorites were actually doing something before the muur.

But ok that's only one edition

 

[observer]

??? Porte skipped the Giro for the Tour and was fried at the Vuelta like Froome. Gilbert and Sagan took a break after the Ardennes last year as well. Cancellara had a broken collarbone at Flanders. Contador was suspended.

Yep, that sounds like a full season peak to me too.

Froome finished 4th. not exactly fried. aside from that, I really hope the fatigue is due to less drugs. More likely, just different drugs, or perhaps more people on the new drugs?