Find a clean winner for major races!!

[Cloxxki]

This in my opinion also deserves a thread of its own.

I get sick of everyone falling over one another saying a whole decade was lost due to Armstrong, let's declare no winner at all.

NO.

Let's do the relatively simple search for clean finishers. to take the TdF as example, it's not that hard. 120 or so finisher per year that Armstrong won.
Scratch any rider ever convicted, they're not in the running for a reinstaed clean win. Few riders are left. Only those interested to share in the prize money to be returned from the various dopers of the era, will be scrutinized USADA style. If they are found to be clean, they are declared winner, second, and hopefully a third will be found. A lot of prize money is to return somehow, and few riders will have a claim to it. they need a handle to claim it. They deserve the HONOR. The FAME. The AUDIENCE.
Get back what was tolen from them. if they decide to publish, they will get the attention they deserve, no less than LeMond for instance. and get these guys in a suit and on the board of the UCI to replace the soon to be sacked dope friend losers.

Clean riders, speak out. Who were you? Only true clean riders will dare take on a USADA-style investigation. there's plenty of money to fund that with, a percentage of the prize money, taxes to be returned.

 

[burning]

If Sastre is really clean as his reputation suggests, he's going to win quite a lot of stuff if you ban all dirty guys

 

[glassmoon]

what about the 96 and 97 TdF winners. both are confessed/caught dopers...
what about AC years under JB and Riis? how come Riis is still credible since he doped through his racing career?
looks like it is total cluster-fu*k.
so from what date/year are they all clean? the average speeds hevent come down since 90ties.

 

[the asian]

There was a thread some time back, where we looked over the Top 10 during Lance's years and figured out on who weren't named in a doping scandal and gave opinions who most likely rode clean.

 

[RHRH19861986]

The Tour is certainly what matters most, and in the Tour, if you go back the last 15 years, there´s just one rider that comes to my mind, which likely has done his GC top performance cleanly, that was Moncoutie in 2002, finishing 13th spot in Paris.

VandeVelde was fourth or fifth 2008, Danielson ninth 2011, but I´m sure they didn´t do that cleanly.

Sastre? Clean? Great...

Lövkvist is another top clean rider. Most of them are, of course, not really successful, I remember names such as Steffen Weigold (Tinkoff) or Carlos da Cruz and Eric Leblacher (FdJeux), Swiss men Albasini and Elmiger are really good reputated, Pinotti also. Thomas Dekker did, which I never, never ever would have expected, a really credible 2012. Peter Stetina remained clean, I think, wheras I´m absolutely not sure of Talansky.
Traditionally, every squad (World Tour) has at least one or two riders that never take anything throughout the whole year, I think that stayed the same. Even teams like RadioShack have riders that might be nearly or completely clean, these might be guys like Didier, Rast or Bennett.

 

[burning]

The Tour is certainly what matters most, and in the Tour, if you go back the last 15 years, there´s just one rider that comes to my mind, which likely has done his GC top performance cleanly, that was Moncoutie in 2002, finishing 13th spot in Paris.

VandeVelde was fourth or fifth 2008, Danielson ninth 2011, but I´m sure they didn´t do that cleanly.

Sastre? Clean? Great...

Lövkvist is another top clean rider. Most of them are, of course, not really successful, I remember names such as Steffen Weigold (Tinkoff) or Carlos da Cruz and Eric Leblacher (FdJeux), Swiss men Albasini and Elmiger are really good reputated, Pinotti also. Thomas Dekker did, which I never, never ever would have expected, a really credible 2012. Peter Stetina remained clean, I think, wheras I´m absolutely not sure of Talansky.
Traditionally, every squad (World Tour) has at least one or two riders that never take anything throughout the whole year, I think that stayed the same. Even teams like RadioShack have riders that might be nearly or completely clean, these might be guys like Didier, Rast or Bennett.

Care to give any proof about Sastre? (I know that he was on not nice teams but he's known as clean guy)

 

[Catwhoorg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300

Looks like Prudhomme disagrees, I think they are just going to be voided.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I believe Ivan Basso at 2010 ll Giro was clean.

 

[Arnout]

Giro 2010. Was the best race in a while too.

 

[RHRH19861986]

Care to give any proof about Sastre? (I know that he was on not nice teams but he's known as clean guy)

Sastre is a humble and quiet person and was never related to any scandal, which is quite unique for a Spanish rider of his class, who has ridden on the highest level for so long.
I, however, think to regard the Tour of 2008 is enough to rate him.

I think he´s like Evans. Surely no hardcore dopers, but people who know what´s necassary to compete for the highest success in the sport.

 

[burning]

Sastre is a humble and quiet person and was never related to any scandal, which is quite unique for a Spanish rider of his class, who has ridden on the highest level for so long.
I, however, think to regard the Tour of 2008 is enough to rate him.

I think he´s like Evans. Surely no hardcore dopers, but people who know what´s necassary to compete for the highest success in the sport.

I think that he never raced (or didnt trained) with wattmeters or stuff like that, that is always a good point for me and he didnt seem to get along with Riis (training wise), which is also a bonus point imo

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pierrick Fedrigo, David Moncoutié, Sandy Casar?

 

[Fatclimber]

Give credit where credit is due, one name and one name only listed as the winner from 1991-present: Edgar.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Jan Ullrich Olympic Roadrace 2000

 

[Cloxxki]

I want to make clear than in my opinion, Jonathan Vaughter (doping on and off) IMO was doping from his first violation.
No Tyler, I like you as far as dopers go, but you're out also, you doped well enough leading up to your clean TdF.

I want to hear of a POS climber, louzy sprinter, useless domestique who actually never doped. As in not before the win he will be granted, and not after. Dopers can come back and win a Giro, but for this, other levels of cleanliness are required.

Would Sastre welcome an investigation by WADA? Let's talk to his team mates. Yes, they were dopers most of them, or else strongly in the running for second prize. And the dopers, we'll be kind to them in taking their prizes away if they agree to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Moncoutie, is he a "never" doper or a "mostly clean" one? Would his teammates vouch for him, all of them?
We don't even need a guy from the first half of the first. A lanterne rouge would be great or even better.

Grant us some home in mankind, let there have been one good guy in each black tour please?

Reality will likely tell us that few clean riders were even allowed in the TdF roster by there teams, as they needed to already make it to the top-9 out of like 20 or 30 pro's amongst whom most doped. But if we can find ONE life-long clean rider and TdF finisher, just for one Tour, that's be a huge win for cycling. Send him the millions. Applications are open. If you don't want the millions and endorsements, you are just one of the dopers.

 

[the asian]

Bassons, Moncoutie and Fedrigo have teammates vouching for them.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Moncoutie, is he a "never" doper or a "mostly clean" one? Would his teammates vouch for him, all of them?
We don't even need a guy from the first half of the first. A lanterne rouge would be great or even better.

Well, multiple teammates have vouched for his cleanliness. And bearing in mind this was a team where riders talked openly about their doping and Moncoutié and Tombak were apparently relentlessly mocked and derided for not joining the others' pace, he'd have to have been working them like crazy to have been doping, and for what reward?

 

[RHRH19861986]

Yes, Gaumont said, at Cofidis, there were many taking the usual stuff, some taking only EPO, and Moncoutie and Janek Tombak (nowadays riding for Conti Team Geofco, from Algeria) took nothing.

Casar has a very good reputation, also did Halgand, who stopped few years ago.

I´d rate Ladagnous as clean. I´d done the same with Rolland until I saw him at the Tour in 2011.

Hubert Schwab, who was with QuickStep for four years, was known as non-doping rider.

The same for Micula deMatteis, who was with Tenax.

I think Patrik Gretsch is either nearly or completely clean. Dominik Roels also, who was with Milram, same for Gajek.

Markus Fothen seems to have chosen the clean way few years ago. In his best days, he was 12th in Giro, nowadays, in his prime age, he suffers in 2.2 races. Rene Weissinger was doing ProConti with Vorarlberg cleanly.

 

[the asian]

Add in Pinotti?

I was responding to his question regarding whether there were any riders where teammates vouched they were clean.

I believe he is clean. But do we have teammates vouching for him?

Gustav Erik Larsson also made some strong comments on lance when USADA banned him indicating he was most likely clean. But i can't find any links where teammates vouch for him.

 

[datalore]

Scratch any rider ever convicted, they're not in the running for a reinstaed clean win.

It isn't fair to assume to disqualify a rider from moving up in the placings because they were found to be doping at one point in their career.

If you are found to have been doping in a given event, you lose your place and either the next person down moves up or the placings don't change. Given the situation in the peloton during the Armstrong years, I feel more comfortable with the latter.

 

[Benotti69]

Bradley Wiggins


































Hahahahahahhahahahahahaha

Only joking

 

[Cloxxki]

It isn't fair to assume to disqualify a rider from moving up in the placings because they were found to be doping at one point in their career.

If you are found to have been doping in a given event, you lose your place and either the next person down moves up or the placings don't change. Given the situation in the peloton during the Armstrong years, I feel more comfortable with the latter.

Would you like to check it event by event, like Tyler and JV? "Yeah, that 69th place was clean. The next race I doped again."
Once doped, you should be off the clean list for several years. No free lunch. A long clean life and then doping only in the winter for a local XC race, sorry, IMO you were clean only until your first dope.

Would you agree with Levi getting a vacated GC crown for something after 2007? To whom would that be fair?

 

[Euskaltel!]

Sastre would sure win a load more races if...

But because of that if, it should just be Moncoutié, Fédrigo etc.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Add in Pinotti?

I like Pinotti, and would have no problem seeing him included here. I would like to see him as being able to be included, for sure. He's got some pretty good results in some shady fields.

 

[RHRH19861986]

Once doped, you should be off the clean list for several years. No free lunch. A long clean life and then doping only in the winter for a local XC race, sorry, IMO you were clean only until your first dope.

That´s a good point, and that´s why I don´t believe the "I doped, but stopped, and was as good or even better" stories.

If a rider takes amphetamines, this stuff leaves the body within 8 or 10 hours.

If someone starts to use hormones the body also produces by nature, body will reduce producing it. If he uses testosterone, there are substances like HCG which will help to animate the body producing more endogenous testosterone after stopping the peroid of testosterone use. For EPO, however, there is no substance which will help to bring you to the pre-EPO natural level. So if someone takes 500-2000 units of EPO over long periods, he has a real problem, because the body won´t produce the same amount of endogen EPO as before.

The only substances, however, that should bring you benefits for all future life are HGH and especially IGF-1, because - contrary to testosterone, where the muscle cell itself just get "larger" - they cause an increased NUMBER of muscle cells and a decreased number of fat cells, both irreversibly.

I strongly believe that a Jan Ullrich, for example, today has to take prescribed medicine every day, to raise low testosterone, to fight anemia, to fight diabetes. You don´t take insuline for fun, then stop it one day, and say "I live without that for the rest of my life".

I´m pretty sure Vandenbroucke had insuline in his hotel room where he died because he had become diabetic through insuline doping.