follow up to Farrar's comments on Cavendish

[King Of The Wolds]

My guess is that there is alot of this going on.

The Giro photos proved that. All the sprinters do it at some point. And not just the sprinters. If somebody has a problem and comes back to the team car, they hang on for a while and then draft back to peloton by using the other team cars.

As long as everybody knows where to draw the line, there's no problem. Cav's smart enough and professional enough to realise this.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Did he do it? Yeah, probably, but probably no more or less than others. He knows when to stop. In any case, no-one's come forward to say "yes, I saw him" or with the picture on the mobile, so nothing anyone can do.
P.S. I'm not a Cavendish fan. I can admire what he and HTC do, but he irritates me like mad.

 

[Hawkwood]

What's cavs problem getting over mountains anyway? He is not exactly the biggest guy in the peloton. Is he just a ***** when it comes to suffering?

If you can't naturally climb well there's not a lot you can do. Boardman spent a great deal of time and effort trying to improve his climbing, but still couldn't stay with the good ones.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

If you can't naturally climb well there's not a lot you can do. Boardman spent a great deal of time and effort trying to improve his climbing, but still couldn't stay with the good ones.

Not just a natural thing though. Cav trains for producing high power outputs over a few kms. Obviously on the flat he can use the drafting effect to go through a couple of hundred kms at fairly low power output, so he doesn't need great endurance for that. On the climbs, the drafting effect is less, and to keep up, he has to produce quite a high power output (although nowhere near sprint outputs) for a long period. He obviously doesn't train as much for endurance, so he struggles with this. Of course, he could try to improve it, but that and the power required for sprinting are mutually exclusive. He tries to get the balance required between the power required for winning sprints and the endurance required for getting through 3 week GTs. At the moment, he does this better than anyone, but it does mean he gets into difficulty occassionally.

 

[Hawkwood]

Not just a natural thing though. Cav trains for producing high power outputs over a few kms. Obviously on the flat he can use the drafting effect to go through a couple of hundred kms at fairly low power output, so he doesn't need great endurance for that. On the climbs, the drafting effect is less, and to keep up, he has to produce quite a high power output (although nowhere near sprint outputs) for a long period. He obviously doesn't train as much for endurance, so he struggles with this. Of course, he could try to improve it, but that and the power required for sprinting are mutually exclusive. He tries to get the balance required between the power required for winning sprints and the endurance required for getting through 3 week GTs. At the moment, he does this better than anyone, but it does mean he gets into difficulty occassionally.

Well put, my comment was hardly scientific. I wonder also about femur length and proportion to height. I've got long femurs and legs and have always been able to climb okay, but is this actually a factor?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

I've got long femurs and legs and have always been able to climb okay, but is this actually a factor?

Doesn't help me

No, it's power (or ability to apply that power repeatedly) to weight ratio, rather than height. Anecdotally, you'd say that size doesn't matter - Rujano, Cunego, Andy Schleck and JVDB are some of the best climbers in the world, but there's some huge height differences amongst them.

 

[Astana1]

Doesn't help me

No, it's power (or ability to apply that power repeatedly) to weight ratio, rather than height. Anecdotally, you'd say that size doesn't matter - Rujano, Cunego, Andy Schleck and JVDB are some of the best climbers in the world, but there's some huge height differences amongst them.

It's also slow vs. fast twitch muscles and a bunch of other sports medicine factors I'm sure.

 

[dsut4392]

The Giro photos proved that. All the sprinters do it at some point. And not just the sprinters. If somebody has a problem and comes back to the team car, they hang on for a while and then draft back to peloton by using the other team cars.

As long as everybody knows where to draw the line, there's no problem. Cav's smart enough and professional enough to realise this.

Not just the sprinters indeed. The worst offender i saw was Garzelli on Giro stage 8 which he was targeting. Wiped out 8km from the finish in a stupid self-inflicted crash, and had multiple full-gas sticky-bottle pulls from the team car trying to get back on. Got a little time-penalty for taking a bottle close to the finish, should have been fined/relegated. Thankfully he didn't 'win' the stage due to Gatto/Contador attack, that would have been a real disgrace.

 

[Boardslide]

He was penalised in 2009 in the ToC for either motor pacing or hanging on to a car. He was accused of doing it in the Giro this year.

My guess is that there is alot of this going on. But Cav gets slagged the most for doing it because he wins so much. Not a Cav fan myself. I actually really dislike him.

In fact it was 2008 TOC when he had the stage taken off him for drafting after a crash, he was reported by Luciano Pagliarini & his DS of the Saunier Duval team . Funnily 3 months later at the Giro the Saunier Duval team car was seen going up the Passo Giau with one of it's riders holding onto a wing mirror. It happens, it's nothing new.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

For a rider that is one of the most watched in the peloton, you'd think there would be at least some amateur photos or videos or taken. I have seen nothing. He does follow cars after a crash or mechanical, but who doesn't? Race officials don't have a problem as long as it's not excessive. On occasion he holds the car to speak with a director, but that doesn't last more than a few moments. It looks like he's only grabbing on to pull himself closer and then puts his hand back on the hoods.

The fact that so many riders claim to have seen it only proves they are afraid of him (like those that heard a hum coming from Fabian's bike ). I'm glad Farrar clarified and rescinded his comments; he's a much bigger man than Rojas.

 

[Punter]

This may be extreme but if say a Rojas suspected (or knew) that Cavendish was holding onto cars why not drop one of their riders back to stay with Cavendish the moment he falls out the bunch. He could sit on Cav's wheel and go nowhere. Aside from knowing every move is being watched imagine how annoyed Cav would get knowing that a much better climber is sucking his wheel to the finish?

The prize could potentially be Cav elimination, well worth losing a teammate along with him for!

 

[Midnightfright]

This may be extreme but if say a Rojas suspected (or knew) that Cavendish was holding onto cars why not drop one of their riders back to stay with Cavendish the moment he falls out the bunch. He could sit on Cav's wheel and go nowhere. Aside from knowing every move is being watched imagine how annoyed Cav would get knowing that a much better climber is sucking his wheel to the finish?

The prize could potentially be Cav elimination, well worth losing a teammate along with him for!

I actually think it could be a great idea. Even if just for mind games.

 

[Mambo95]

This may be extreme but if say a Rojas suspected (or knew) that Cavendish was holding onto cars why not drop one of their riders back to stay with Cavendish the moment he falls out the bunch. He could sit on Cav's wheel and go nowhere. Aside from knowing every move is being watched imagine how annoyed Cav would get knowing that a much better climber is sucking his wheel to the finish?

The prize could potentially be Cav elimination, well worth losing a teammate along with him for!

Well Andrey Amador, until today the Lanterne Rouge, is back there and usually gets dropped before Cavendish.

He probably doesn't get to join in HTC's excellent descending team though.

Cavendish knows every move is being watched. He said in the papers that he doesn't even take his own bottles from the team car so no-one takes an 'incriminating' photo.

 

[lanternrouge]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on what is a non story

No pictures. No video. No eye witness of any credibility. No evidence of ANY form. No story! Just the disgruntled comments of a rival rider trying it on.

Nothing to see here move along please.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To be fair to Amador, he's a pretty good climber and a very good descender in his own right, but he has had an annus horribilis. It started in a ditch after being mugged and left for dead, had a broken collarbone in April and he destroyed his ankle at the start of the Tour and has been riding injured. The Movistar team doctor thinks that the simple fact he hasn't retired yet is one of the most amazing things he's ever seen.

 

[Marva32]

Where? When? What punishment did the commisairs hand out?
No?
Then don't quote your unsubstantiated opinion, as fact, especially when trying to give credence an assumption.

A much more reasoned and sporting response than one would have expected from Cav.

The allegations are here: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8469/Giro-dItalia-Ventoso-accuses-Cavendish-of-holding-onto-team-car-up-Mount-Etna.aspx

Cavendish was the last rider to cross the line at the very back of the sprinters “gruppetto”, finshing 26’35” behind Contador and making the time limit by just 25 seconds. Aussie sprinters Robbie McEwen (RadioShack) and Graeme Brown (Rabobank) were not so lucky though, and didn’t make it; they finished outside the cut and were eliminated from the race.

 

[Apollonius]

Where? When? What punishment did the commisairs hand out?
No?
Then don't quote your unsubstantiated opinion, as fact, especially when trying to give credence an assumption.

A much more reasoned and sporting response than one would have expected from Cav.

Oh dear......

ToC he was penalised for holding on, 20sec IIRC.

That's why he's suspected now, because of his past indiscretions (because being caught once doesn't equate to just trying it once). However, in the tour I feel it would be incredibly hard for him to do this and get away with it - far too much coverage, far too many riders and officials.

 

[Mambo95]

Oh dear......

ToC he was penalised for holding on, 20sec IIRC.

That's why he's suspected now, because of his past indiscretions (because being caught once doesn't equate to just trying it once). However, in the tour I feel it would be incredibly hard for him to do this and get away with it - far too much coverage, far too many riders and officials.

It was after a crash 8km from the finish of a flat stage. Reports differ as to whether it was for holding on while getting his bike fixed or drafting team cars too long - the sort of stuff we see every day. If he hadn't taken the p!ss and won the stage no-one would have cared.

Cipollini, who was also in the crash, was similarly relegated.

It wasn't a big pull up a mountain

 

[Andy99]

Either way, it was the TOC.

It's not even a proper race, so who cares.