Four more implicated in T-Mobile ring

May 6, 2009
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From the front page:

"Freiburg net widens for doctors involved in doping

The investigation into two former Freiburg University Clinic doctors at the centre of controversy surrounding alleged doping of T-Mobile riders has been extended to include four more practitioners, according to sports agency SID.

Prosecutor Wolfgang Maier confirmed that four more doctors have been implicated in the case, a process which is trying to establish the facts surrounding practices in the Freiburg University Clinic throughout the late 1990s and during this decade. This latest information is due to be published in today's edition of the Badischer Zeitung.

The names of the doctors involved have not been revealed, but it's believed they were under scrutiny for "taking advantage" of those engaged in the practices but not for actual violation of anti-drug laws. Dr. Andreas Schmid and Dr Lothar Heinrich remain the only two practioners dismissed for direct violations in engaging in doping activities.

According to SID it's alleged the four doctors accepted money from Telekom and T-Mobile riders, acting as 'intermediaries' for Dr Schmid and Dr Heinrich. Both were responsible for the medical monitoring of the Telekom/T-Mobile team until 2007 and admitted their role in systemic doping within the squad, after which they were dismissed from the clinic. The details of their actions were published during May with the release of the Freiburg Report.

After two years of investigation, the commission of experts established by the University of Freiburg concluded that doping within the Telekom and T-Mobile was systemic from 1995 to 2006."


I would not be surprised if Serhiy Honchar turns up as one of those involved.
 

whiteboytrash

BANNED
Mar 17, 2009
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Anyone who has even been associated with T-Mobile is guilty except Kloden. He walked out of the room whenever anyone spoke of doping or was doing a quick trip down to the local blood bank. Geez ! Just ban the guy so we can get on with it...... he's guilty.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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craig1985 said:
I would not be surprised if Serhiy Honchar turns up as one of those involved.
T-Mobile sacked Honchar for abnormal blood values, so that's very likely. But many others were involved here.

Once again the random way justice occurs is tarnishing cycling, one rider can face a ban when another is left to race.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Stani Kléber said:
Once again the random way justice occurs is tarnishing cycling, one rider can face a ban when another is left to race.
That is what happens when the governing body decides that the old shuck and jive can be used until the bad news blows over instead of just dealing with the problem straight up. It works at first, but as the situation continues year after year, far longer than anyone originally thought it would, all the injustices start adding up. Eventually a situation is reached where the reasons why one doper has been banned, another bankrupted, another welcomed back from retirement, and still another is winning classics are so convoluted that the whole sport becomes a farce.

There is a saw in American politics that explains how politicians are often brought down: "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up." If you deal with matters in a straight forward manner, you can put them to rest; but if you cover them up then they fester forever. Watching cycling is a living example of why this is true.
 
Disappointing, though not surprising at all.

It's a real shame that all of this is being left to the German federation, whom I would like to give large praise and credit to actually trying to root out what's going on what's been tossed in their lap. They seem to be completely eschewing all the politics and PR, and just doing a thorough job with no BS. The rest of our countries could really sit back, watch, and take notes. Of course I didn't say "the UCI" because I have no faith in them to do much of anything thorough or even handed at this point.

I think it was Nixon who made that statement BroDeal, and it applied to him more than anyone.
 
May 17, 2009
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whiteboytrash said:
Anyone who has even been associated with T-Mobile is guilty except Kloden. He walked out of the room whenever anyone spoke of doping or was doing a quick trip down to the local blood bank. Geez ! Just ban the guy so we can get on with it...... he's guilty.
Does look like T-Mobile was running hot for a while, and there was no way Kloden wasn't in on it. Astana would do well to sack him, keep the attention away from the other dirty fish they have on their team.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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... The sponsors and names and riders change from year to year but the doping will always be there.

Columbia continuation.....Why cant these american teams (the USA cycling teams are TERRIBLE when it comes to feeding BS!!!) just not say a damn thing or say "no comment" when asked about doping... Like Ullrich did! Why must they lie through their teeth and create these PR "independent testing" programs and make poor tools actually believe their clean?

I like the old T-Mobile squad with Ullrich and Vino... These new guys now are all a bunch of a$$holes and they suck too! Ullrich and Vino were far more talented fully doped. Vino was one of may favs too... Damn I lost all respect for pro cycling when they took him down. ALL THE damnn riders are doped! .... CLEAN? Just cancel the Tour and then have it run off with 25 riders the next year... They know damn well they could do total body hemoglobins and power files. But they do not do this testing for obvious reasons. THEN dont take down my favorite riders for F-sakes!
There are 1,000 pros in Europe doping and they take down 10 riders per year. What a joke.
 
May 6, 2009
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Call me naive, but I have considered Linus Gerdemann clean and he was part of T-Mobile in2006 (obviously not on the Tour team that year). Well as much as possible since I don't know him. I can only do this via his anti-doping stance (like disowning Patrick Sinkewitz as a person) and I remebered the lines of salt around his mouth when he won his stage in 2007 (you know you have been suffering, or at least from dehydration when that happens) and the next day he got dropped straight away when the hardclimbing started. Again I'm only an outsider, and I don't have inside knowledge like BigBoat or some of the other posters on here who make accusations without any proof to their claims.

But then I have always seem it this way, if you have skeletons in your closet, evidently they will come out.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Well, he's also somehow Cecchini Gerdemann.
Although T-Mobilde made him get rid of him after people found out he was his client.

Riding for CSC and T-Mobile probably doesn't naturally lets you look like a good guy as well.

But still, noone knows what he is on or is not.
Some people believe Milram really is a pretty clean team.
 
Mar 15, 2009
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craig1985 said:
Call me naive, but I have considered Linus Gerdemann clean and he was part of T-Mobile in2006 (obviously not on the Tour team that year). Well as much as possible since I don't know him. I can only do this via his anti-doping stance (like disowning Patrick Sinkewitz as a person) and I remebered the lines of salt around his mouth when he won his stage in 2007 (you know you have been suffering, or at least from dehydration when that happens) and the next day he got dropped straight away when the hardclimbing started. Again I'm only an outsider, and I don't have inside knowledge like BigBoat or some of the other posters on here who make accusations without any proof to their claims.

But then I have always seem it this way, if you have skeletons in your closet, evidently they will come out.
I like your line of reasoning.
However, use it and apply it to Lance and the shrieks and screams will start.

Lance finished the long ITT in 2003 to Cap Decouverte with huge salt lines around his mouth. And lost big time to Ullrich for the first time ever in the TOur.

THe next day Ullrich dropped Lance in the mountains.

As for the recent four, I note where cyclingnews continues the bait and swtich headlines "Four more implicated T-Mobile ring" and then the article is about four doctors getting fined or some minor reprimand. Instead of what everyone THINKS when they read the headling--that Kloden or Gerdeman or Gonchar got popped.


Sheez guys. This will work once or tweice then everyone will go elsewhere for real news.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Gerdeman?

It really is too bad that these young riders have done this (spoken out iike their not doped.) It makes tools and fools believe them and it causes a chain reaction effect in the cycling community believing its possible to race at the top in europe clean... Did you know that Gerdeman (linus) was linked with the famous Italian doping doctor Luigi Cecchini ?? He is one of the top doctors the best of the best!

Ullrich, Dimitri Konochev, Pavel Tonkov... riders of the past had more class than this and they either said nothing or no comment.... Talented riders no matter how good would struggle just to finish the Tour clean... It depends on how many riders are at 50% (hematocrit) and up with blood doping. If 20 riders are there then there's no way clean riders would ever finish... The whole field will be up to some degree if 20 can get above 50%. Thats staggering on the pace of the race and in fact clean talented riders wouldnt even be able to pull or do anything in the race but hang onto the "train." They would draft in the train on the flat stages and be dropped like debris in a landslide when the mountains hit.... You see people dont understand the true power of a high crit and the effect this has on a race. All will try and raise their crits but most cannot blood dope with their own blood all the way to a 59%... But if some can its over with for clean riders. At best you could maybe get 50-75 places but thats really tough... Lemond got 7th in the first epo tour and that was a freakish performance... In fact on epo I think he might have won that Tour by 8 minutes or more! The next year he DNFd... So as I said it depends on how many are jacked. Gerdeman though is an A$$ for working with the Italians then saying he's been clean. That was my original point where did I end up? LOL
 
Mar 18, 2009
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davestoller said:
Lance finished the long ITT in 2003 to Cap Decouverte with huge salt lines around his mouth. And lost big time to Ullrich for the first time ever in the TOur.

THe next day Ullrich dropped Lance in the mountains.
What does that prove? Armstrong dropped Ullrich on a later mountain. We know from Vaughters that the Postal team was using blood transfusions during that time. 2003 was also the year that Ullrich switched to Fuentes and may have first started using transfusions. Ullrich was sick for half of the 2004 Tour and crashed twice during the 2005 one, so we do not know his true level of performance in those years. Transfusions may have allowed him to achieve even doping tech with Postal and thus be competitive.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Yeah the top 10 are blood doping like before... Maybe 50 of them! Nothing has changed much among the top dudes. Lance will probably win again this year... Too bad Basso didnt want to ride. I like him, he's not a bad guy.

An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005.

Cyclevaughters: frankie - hey - thanks for talking the other day

FDREU: no problem, where are you

Cyclevaughters: back in CO

FDREU: nice, I just got home, isnt' it like 5AM

Cyclevaughters: sometimes i think i'm going to go nuts

Cyclevaughters: yeah

Cyclevaughters: it's 5am

FDREU: I agree, I came home and the air conditioning is broken

Cyclevaughters: ouch

FDREU: did your kid grow twice it's size in the two weeks you were gone

Cyclevaughters: yeah, his feet look bigger for some eason

FDREU: funny

Cyclevaughters: anyhow, i never can quite figure out why i don't just play along with the lance crowd - i mean **** it would make my life easier, eh? it's not like i never played with hotsauce, eh?

FDREU: I know, but in the end i don't think it comes back to bite you

FDREU: I play along, my wife does not, and Lance hates us both

FDREU: it's a no win situation, you know how he is. Once you leave the team or do soemthing wrong you forever banned

Cyclevaughters: i suppose - you know he tried to hire me back in 2001... he was nice to me... i just couldn't deal with that whole world

FDREU: I did not know that

FDREU: look at why everyone leaves, it's way to controlling

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now all the teams got 25 injections every day

Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO

FDREU: you mean all the riders

Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole

FDREU: it's crazy

Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of **** when he'd say everyone was doing it

FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the Tour and lance but it's just playing the game

Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39%

FDREU: when in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - whtever

FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not

FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff

Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone

FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group

Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos

FDREU: explain that, classics to climber

FDREU: when did you talk with floyd

Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George

Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal

Cyclevaughters: or at least i did

FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

FDREU: they have it mastered. good point

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it

FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so ****ed at them this entire tour

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys

Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the **** when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird

FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason

FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest

Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"

FDREU: they won't stop

FDREU: I agree
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
davestoller said:
I like your line of reasoning.
However, use it and apply it to Lance and the shrieks and screams will start.

Lance finished the long ITT in 2003 to Cap Decouverte with huge salt lines around his mouth. And lost big time to Ullrich for the first time ever in the TOur.

THe next day Ullrich dropped Lance in the mountains.

As for the recent four, I note where cyclingnews continues the bait and swtich headlines "Four more implicated T-Mobile ring" and then the article is about four doctors getting fined or some minor reprimand. Instead of what everyone THINKS when they read the headling--that Kloden or Gerdeman or Gonchar got popped.


Sheez guys. This will work once or tweice then everyone will go elsewhere for real news.
Maybe because Gerdemann never produced samples of urine that had synthetic EPO in them?
 
May 6, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Gerdeman?

It really is too bad that these young riders have done this (spoken out iike their not doped.) It makes tools and fools believe them and it causes a chain reaction effect in the cycling community believing its possible to race at the top in europe clean... Did you know that Gerdeman (linus) was linked with the famous Italian doping doctor Luigi Cecchini ?? He is one of the top doctors the best of the best!

Ullrich, Dimitri Konochev, Pavel Tonkov... riders of the past had more class than this and they either said nothing or no comment.... Talented riders no matter how good would struggle just to finish the Tour clean... It depends on how many riders are at 50% (hematocrit) and up with blood doping. If 20 riders are there then there's no way clean riders would ever finish... The whole field will be up to some degree if 20 can get above 50%. Thats staggering on the pace of the race and in fact clean talented riders wouldnt even be able to pull or do anything in the race but hang onto the "train." They would draft in the train on the flat stages and be dropped like debris in a landslide when the mountains hit.... You see people dont understand the true power of a high crit and the effect this has on a race. All will try and raise their crits but most cannot blood dope with their own blood all the way to a 59%... But if some can its over with for clean riders. At best you could maybe get 50-75 places but thats really tough... Lemond got 7th in the first epo tour and that was a freakish performance... In fact on epo I think he might have won that Tour by 8 minutes or more! The next year he DNFd... So as I said it depends on how many are jacked. Gerdeman though is an A$$ for working with the Italians then saying he's been clean. That was my original point where did I end up? LOL
Wouldn't that prove that racing a GT is just too hard on the body to recover and one has to dope just to finish, let alone win anything?
 

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