France bans veils in public

[Merckx index]

I didn’t see this in the general political thread, and thought it deserved its own thread. I wonder how others feel about this. While I think, like almost anyone in the West, that forcing women (or anyone) to wear a veil in public is barbaric, I’m a little uncomfortable at the notion of banning them. If it can be shown that they are some kind of security threat, that people need to reveal their face in public (as in Italy), I can understand that, but my understanding is that France wanted to ban them just because of their religious significance.

If a woman wants to wear a veil and is not in that way causing anyone harm, why not allow it? Is it supposed to function as a symbolic gesture of Western society's abhorrence of certain Muslim practices? Is the idea that if France allowed this practice on a voluntary basis, it would be providing tacit support for the practice of compelling the veil in Muslim countries?

Or is there a more practical goal, that women who wear them in a society that does not require them need to be compelled to give up the practice for their own good? That such women are in effect brainwashed, and need to be re-educated? And if so, is a ban on veils really going to promote that campaign? Or will it result in a backlash that makes matters worse?

There must be some French people on this forum who can comment on public reaction over there. My understanding is that it has been mostly positive, but that there have also been protests. How are the so-called moderate Muslims reacting to this?

 

[auscyclefan94]

The only problem with the veil's is the possible smuggling things in and out of places.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The only problem with the veil's is the possible smuggling things in and out of places.

Yeah, like hot Arab chicks.

 

[Cobber]

Is it a ban of veils in public or a ban in public buildings? It is my understanding that France bans all religious clothing in public buildings.

 

[Race Radio]

What is next? Are they going to ban my flying spaghetti monster T-Shirt? There would be riots in the street

 

[movingtarget]

As much as I am a bit bemused by the wearing of a burqua, governments are going over the top with the controls and idiot rules they are continually introducing. If they are behaving themselves why not leave them alone ? Police still have the powers to search them whenever they want. If they are carrying something, they won't find it on their face will they ? I don't think it will solve anything, it will just make another minority feel even more bitter towards their government. Westerners visiting Muslim countries with their chests and backsides swinging in the breeze is okay I suppose but people get upset when someone is arrested in a Muslim country for showing too much flesh even though they are warned beforehand. They call it progress........

 

[Merckx index]

Is it a ban of veils in public or a ban in public buildings? It is my understanding that France bans all religious clothing in public buildings.

The world's first ban on Islamic face veils took effect Monday in France, meaning that women may bare their breasts in Cannes but not cover their faces on the Champs-Elysees…

The law says it is illegal to hide the face in the public space, but makes exceptions to allow for motorcycle helmets, traditional ceremonies such as weddings or Carnival costumes.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...11/international/i132410D76.DTL#ixzz1JHPAeOrb

You can wear a carnival costume or a wedding veil, but not a burqa? IOW, if it's part of a Western custom, you can do it, but not if it's a Muslim practice. Good luck enforcing this. Lawyers will have a field day.

I think Muslims are winning a war with the West, when the West stoops to the same level of denying individuals the right to express themselves differently from the mainstream.

 

[Siriuscat]

I think it's down to individual countries to deal with these issues as they decide and when people are in those countries abide by the laws, thats the minimum that Arab nations demand of visitors so why should they be different in other countries?

 

[rhubroma]

The issue, as I see it, is drawing the line between what is an individual's freedom and when such a freedom infringes upon an individual’s rights.

Has France over-stepped this measure? Probably so, with the excuse that since its national constitution is based upon libertè, egalitè and fraternitè, such a humiliation foisted upon the female sex by a misogynistic Arabic culture is unconstitutional, though more to the truth offensive to these Western values. Juridically, therefore, the motion would seem to rest upon a rather spurious case.

However we are in fact dealing with a multi-cultural society, in the Western World, for which no single mores theoretically can be considered above any other and thus banning Arab women the veil would be an act of prepotency of one social norm over another.

Then there is the religious issue, though, because France does not permit the display of religious symbols in any public building or space, being a lay democracy. On this account things get even more tricky. Is the Muslim veil like the crucifix? Or does the wearing of the veil transcend the mere religious, as, for example, some one wearing a cross necklace? No government sane of mind would ever think to tell the county clerk to take that cross from around their neck, as being offensive to the integrity of the lay State.

In the end I think it boils down to a reactionary sentiment, not only in France, but throughout the Western World, which merely demonstrates that it is going through an identity crisis.

 

[Merckx index]

Then there is the religious issue, though, because France does not permit the display of religious symbols in any public building or space, being a lay democracy. On this account things get even more tricky. Is the Muslim veil like the crucifix? Or does the wearing of the veil transcend the mere religious, as, for example, some one wearing a cross necklace? No government sane of mind would ever think to tell the county clerk to take that cross from around their neck, as being offensive to the integrity of the lay State.

What about a yarmulke, is wearing of that in public actually banned in France? What about a priest's collar, for that matter? What about someone wearing the orange or white robes of certain Hindu sects? I can't believe France seriously bans public displays of religious symbols like these. I won't even get into Wicca and other fringe views.

In the end I think it boils down to a reactionary sentiment, not only in France, but throughout the Western World, which merely demonstrates that it is going through an identity crisis.

I agree with this. The bedrock Western value of freedom of expression may contain the seeds of its own negation. How do you allow expression of a view that doesn't tolerate freedom of expression? I really don't see a problem with veils here, but other extremist Muslim views do create conflict. There are microsocieties of Muslims in European countries that may tolerate or even promote, for example, female genital mutilation and honor killings.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I think islamic countrys should just push through a law that obliges Burkas for non-islamic female citizens and visitors + strict alcohol-ban.
These people are so tolerant and nice to us when visiting their countrys - to get THIS.

I remember many blonde chicks running nearly naked through streets or hotels making Turkish, Egypt or Maroc men horny - without any respect. Even then they say nothing.
They shouldn't wear burkas, but a little respect for culture wouldn't be bad.

Can't be. Everyone should be free to follow his culture and religion.
While it is of course clear that teachers, or other public employees shouldn't wear this, when working or teaching on schools.

We had this debate here in this country earlier. There should just be a clear line that makes sense, but no useless constraints.
And same justice for all.

 

[rhubroma]

What about a yarmulke, is wearing of that in public actually banned in France? What about a priest's collar, for that matter? What about someone wearing the orange or white robes of certain Hindu sects? I can't believe France seriously bans public displays of religious symbols like these. I won't even get into Wicca and other fringe views.



I agree with this. The bedrock Western value of freedom of expression may contain the seeds of its own negation. How do you allow expression of a view that doesn't tolerate freedom of expression? I really don't see a problem with veils here, but other extremist Muslim views do create conflict. There are microsocieties of Muslims in European countries that may tolerate or even promote, for example, female genital mutilation and honor killings.

I was actually thinking of displaying religious symbols in public buildings, for example crucifixes in public schools or court houses. In fact one of the issues that this veil debate seems to be focussed on is also in conection with the principles of the lay state of a Western democracy.

Yet, as you mentioned, when it comes to matters of costume, then things get more grey in this regard. How is it that we at once respect the habits of a culture different from our own, though which is at once living among us, in a pluralistic society that is supposed to be based on tollerance? Does the order to remove the veil then represent a breech in this social contract, or, as it has been argued by the anti-islamists (which is what the promotors of the law really are - and the segment of the population in agreement with it), is its presence a symbol of intollerance that is not compatible with those values of libertè, egalitè and fraternitè that needs to be respected in the public life of the state according to the constitution?

Try and come up with a response that respects both sides of the issue simultaneously and I'm sure you will be in real difficulty: as the second part of your response indicates through a basic contradiction inherent within the principles of our Western egalitarianism in a pluralistic and globalized society.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think islamic countrys should just push through a law that obliges Burkas for non-islamic female citizens and visitors + strict alcohol-ban.
These people are so tolerant and nice to us when visiting their countrys - to get THIS.

I remember many blonde chicks running nearly naked through streets or hotels making Turkish, Egypt or Maroc men horny - without any respect. Even then they say nothing.
They shouldn't wear burkas, but a little respect for culture wouldn't be bad.
Can't be. Everyone should be free to follow his culture and religion.
While it is of course clear that teachers, or other public employees shouldn't wear this, when working or teaching on schools.

We had this debate here in this country earlier. There should just be a clear line that makes sense, but no useless constraints.
And same justice for all.

I don't actually agree. Saying that westerners are disrespectful to muslims culture and religion is incorrect.

In some municipalities in Australia, muslims are pushing to have their own segregated areas in public places such as swimming pools. The muslims who want these fascilities expect everyone else to pay for these fascilities through council rates. Muslims are only 1.7% of the population and that 1.7% would only occasionally use it. I personaly see that as disrespecting another person's way of life by pushing such things on others

Saying that a non-islamic person is not respectful of islamic person's religion in an islamic country is incorrect as you see that sort of thing from islamic people or any person from any religion show little respect for another's religion. It is strictly not a religious problem. It is just to do with manners.

In Australia, polticial correctness like this issue of burka's is terrible. Whenever someone says something against an aboriginal, muslim or a homosexual person, quite often the racial or homophobic 'card' is used. Some muslims have been pushing for christmas to not be celebrated in schools. The fact is that 65% of Australians are catholic. Like in India, a catholic person would not stop a hindu person celebrating special festivals in their culture just because they, the minority aren't hindu.

My point is, political correctness in many western cultures has gone crazy. People should be allowed to follow their religion if it doesn't infringe on others way of life, freedom or safety. If the burka's are a threat to another's safety or if it could be a way to smuggle or steal something then it should be banned.

 

[The Hitch]

I don't actually agree. Saying that westerners are disrespectful to muslims culture and religion is incorrect.

He was most probably being sarcastic seeing as many Islamic countries do have these rolls.

As for me, any step taken against such a sexist object as the Burka is a step forward.


What is a more important issue is that Western governments drop this horrific idea that religious leaders are community leaders (they dont even get elected) and stop giving them power- eg put in House of Lords.

I didn’t see this in the general political thread, and thought it deserved its own thread.

Thats because France isnt in the US, and only the US has ever really been covered in that thread

 

[Francois the Postman]

What is a more important issue is that Western governments drop this horrific idea that religious leaders are community leaders (they dont even get elected) and stop giving them power- eg put in House of Lords.

Don't get me started.

 

[Spare Tyre]

I don't actually agree. Saying that westerners are disrespectful to muslims culture and religion is incorrect.

In some municipalities in Australia, muslims are pushing to have their own segregated areas in public places such as swimming pools. The muslims who want these fascilities expect everyone else to pay for these fascilities through council rates. Muslims are only 1.7% of the population and that 1.7% would only occasionally use it. I personaly see that as disrespecting another person's way of life by pushing such things on others

Saying that a non-islamic person is not respectful of islamic person's religion in an islamic country is incorrect as you see that sort of thing from islamic people or any person from any religion show little respect for another's religion. It is strictly not a religious problem. It is just to do with manners.

In Australia, polticial correctness like this issue of burka's is terrible. Whenever someone says something against an aboriginal, muslim or a homosexual person, quite often the racial or homophobic 'card' is used. Some muslims have been pushing for christmas to not be celebrated in schools. The fact is that 65% of Australians are catholic. Like in India, a catholic person would not stop a hindu person celebrating special festivals in their culture just because they, the minority aren't hindu.

My point is, political correctness in many western cultures has gone crazy. People should be allowed to follow their religion if it doesn't infringe on others way of life, freedom or safety. If the burka's are a threat to another's safety or if it could be a way to smuggle or steal something then it should be banned.

Based on this post I'd say you're a white, heterosexual male from a European, probably Anglo, Christian (even if not religious) background.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Thing is: it's already forbidden wear things that cover your face for obvious security reasons.

Other from that: it's absurd to forbid types of clothing in public. (Although I assume it already is forbidden to wear nothing and maybe nazistic clothing)

 

[rhubroma]

...

As for me, any step taken against such a sexist object as the Burka is a step forward.


What is a more important issue is that Western governments drop this horrific idea that religious leaders are community leaders (they dont even get elected) and stop giving them power- eg put in House of Lords...

The Burka is only one, extreme, side of the issue.

Eventually I'm convinced that the younger generations of Muslims living in the West will themselves make such a bad dress a relic of the past.

What's important is that, so long as any society respects the law (not of a supreme being, but of the state), then certain issues of decorum and habit should be allowed to be reformed from within the practicing group. The best we can do is encourage such reforms, because the moment we try to abolish certain customs, they are only reinforced by the more reactionary and arrogant elements within the foreign group.

As for the religious leaders being community leaders go, I'm the first to hope that they disappear. However with the neo-religious revival in our Western democracies, where it is firstly a noteworthy segment of the population itself that gives power and authority to the religious hierarchy, but also a part of the political class (at times, cynically, just to get votes) that lends an ear to its calls and demands; I fear we are a long way of from living in a truly liberated state from the irrational and exclusive aspects of creed and faith.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

If I had a vote, or one came up in my state, I would vote "no" on such a ban.

I can see why they are banned in government buildings, police questioning, airports and such. But in general public? I would vote no. At least not until someone can give me a good reason why for reasons of security it should be banned.

An equal question would be should private businesses be allowed to refuse service to anyone wearing one? Where does the law stand on that?

Also agree with Merckx OP that this seems to not be a security issue, as some sort of religious/social issue they are trying to enforce.

 

[Race Radio]

I am confused. Are these head scarves banned as well....or are they only ok if you eat pork products?

 

[Race Radio]

I am confused. Are these head scarves banned as well....or are they only ok if you eat pork products?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

OK, thread title might be misleading. What is banned in France are Burqa's and niqabs, not all veils, certainly not hijabs or other headscarfs. With burqa's and niqabs the whole face is covered. Banning all veils would be absurd of course...

this is banned:

not this

 

[Christian]

OK, thread title might be misleading. What is banned in France are Burqa's and niqabs, not all veils, certainly not hijabs or other headscarfs. With burqa's and niqabs the whole face is covered. Banning all veils would be absurd of course...

Yes the thread name is misleading, maybe that should be changed.

IMO the reason behind the prohibition of the burqa is not so much safety reasons or human rights or the fact that it creeps people out. As far as I understand there were political motivations as well. By passing this law and by deporting Roma, it seems Sarkozy is trying to gain votes from the right hand side of the political spectrum.

In an atmosphere of general disappointment in the big parties (only 45% participation in the latest regional votes), the extreme right Front National with their leader Marine Le Pen has achieved high percentages. These are the votes that Sarkozy is trying to get for the presidential elections in 2012, because his UMP is behind the PS in the polls right now.

In reality this is an issue of almost no importance whatsoever, as it concerns an infititely small percentage of people. I believe the French society is strong and open enough to tolerate this small percentage. The government however has chosen to blow it completely out of proportion and by doing so has certainly created a lot of resentment in the muslim community, as well as widenened the gap between cultures and religions.

The other day they arrested a woman in Paris who was protesting in a burqa, of course with 20 cameramen and photographers around. What is supposed to bring Sarkozy the votes of the extreme right is in fact a dangerous and counterproductive move when it comes to tolerance and integration in a multicutural and -religious country.

 

[Irish2009]

Balaclavas are also banned in certain places!!!! is this fair to professional bank robbers?? Crucifexes were banned in french schools some years ago, strangely there was very little media coverage then. I think its more a fear of extreamism creeping in, in 30 years time France will be more Muslim than Christian and the ruling will be overturned.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I think its more a fear of extreamism creeping in,

It's a fear of 'the other', but will work counterproductive against extremism...