France bans veils in public

[The Hitch]

That's comparing apples and oranges though, and it could only be a Hitchens aficionado who sees it that way

Whats comparing apples to oranges? And not only CH fans, or even secularists, will see something very wrong with a western country banning me from walking into a bank with a helmet, but telling women their object of sexism, which in many cases is enforced on them by family, is perfectly allowable, even though it covers far more of the face.

 

[Cobblestones]

I completely agree with this.
And then you suddenly say this:

You first say to wear or not to wear a burqa is something cultural, which could be compared to wearing clothes or not (I really believe this is a very strong comparison).
Then you say these women need to 'emancipate', or worse: assimilate.

So you quite literally say 'their' culture (or this small part of the culture) is inferior to 'our culture'??
Or do you mean: they are migrants and need to adapt to the host culture?

I think burqas are misogynic. It's cultural, which mainly explains that even the women themselves wouldn't be comfortable taking them off. Women have a better life in a culture where the burqa (and what it represents) is not the norm. This might just as well be a reformed muslim, middle eastern culture. It would be a great development for women to emancipate.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

That's comparing apples and oranges though, and it could only be a Hitchens aficionado who sees it that way

nahhh In my opinion your wrong.

Those Burkamathings should be banned in my opinion. Oh and for the record before it is claimed or brush up against someone's soft side...... I AM A WHITE IRISH WHISKY TANGO and I DO NOT PRACTICE ANY RELIGION CURRENTLY! SO STEP THE >>>>>>>> OFF.

ummmm maybe chill out a little will help.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Now for some needed humor.

Maybe the women on that side of the world need a good old fashioned American 70's advertising campaign:

 

[Spare Tyre]

You are mostly right. But how does this change anything? Does this make me racist? As you would know, there are many hate crimes in Melbourne with the high amount of indian students coming over to australia. I am not happy about that. It seems like you are implying that I have some sort of 'thing' against gays, muslims and aboriginal people.

No, I wasn't trying to imply you're homophobic or racist, however, it seemed likely to me that if you had experienced the discomforts and distress of being Other in Australian society you were unlikely to have written such a post. And in Australian society, the likeliest social markers to a lack of understanding of Otherness are to be male, heterosexual, and of European (probably British) and Christian background.

In relation to the ban on the burqa, I'm with those who dislike/object to them generally, but oppose the ban itself, for a number of reasons, all of which have been touched on in various posts above.

 

[nowhereman]

Wha??? The riders can't wear veils??? I don't understand! Can't they can tuck them into the chin straps securely so they don't flap around? We would still know who they are by the numbers on their backs. I don't understand this ban!

 

[L'arriviste]

I'm with Moondance and others on this. There was an article on Le Soir the other day here in Belgium (this stuff has also been a 'hot' issue here for the non-government) written by a Muslim Moroccan-Belgian lady who thought that fellow Muslims were regressing. When she was a kid growing up in Saint-Josse, she never saw veils in her community and nobody wanted to segregate public swimming pools.

Society needs to allow itself to socialise and to evolve by doing so. This does not automatically mean more (Sarko righty right) legislation. We already have plenty of that and we can't rely on cretinous, self-serving politicians to do it properly.

I say, let these people wear what they want, but equally let them appreciate the cause and effect of doing so. Once they've had enough of being stuck at home, social misfits and unemployable, they'll have to start thinking about what their lives are worth to society.

In a secular society that pretends equality, taxpayers can't be expected to pay for public segregation (which you can simply read as an issue of resources rather than one of religious apartheid) and wilful unemployment (religious bindings are not valid when claiming from a secular system, for example).

 

[The Hitch]

I say, let these people wear what they want, but equally let them appreciate the cause and effect of doing so. Once they've had enough of being stuck at home, social misfits and unemployable, they'll have to start thinking about what their lives are worth to society.

Well I want to wear my bycicle helmet next time i enter a bank. Oh wait, I cant. But it seems some people can cover their face on the grounds that Western Society must not be percieved as being anything other than welcoming to any ideas, however wrong, unfair or even unconstitutional so long as a religion takes up that rule as being part of their faith.

And if something is part of someone's faith it must be respected, held up as a model for prosperity and cohesion.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

A nun can wear here veil when entering a bank.

A burqa that covers the face is something totally different. A bank should be able to (and I guess they have that autority) deny entrance to people who cover their face .

 

[rhubroma]

Well I want to wear my bycicle helmet next time i enter a bank. Oh wait, I cant. But it seems some people can cover their face on the grounds that Western Society must not be percieved as being anything other than welcoming to any ideas, however wrong, unfair or even unconstitutional so long as a religion takes up that rule as being part of their faith.

And if something is part of someone's faith it must be respected, held up as a model for prosperity and cohesion.

I think you make an argument that's merely convenient to an ideological position, which doesn't consider the important why's as to the radicalization of the Muslim world. These (also) have much to do with the debatable policies that the West often used when dealing with the Islamic countries, with little concern for anything but its oil.

And while it is true that the Muslim societies, themselves, have an equal share in this phenomenon, the fact that the West effected policies in the region that often supported a totalitarian state that prevented progressive social reforms, the religious cast often filled in what the political leadership could not provide: that is a cultural identity.

But places like Iran, Iraq, Syria and others were often 60-70 years ago headed, before Western policies helped radicalize the situation, toward a more liberal and modernized Muslim world then they have since become.

The West doesn't want to be perceived as tolerant, but if it is to live up to its values needs to be so. The problem is, given all the things we did in many places around the globe, and with our recent misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the West as a global model of Values is not very convincing.

On the respecting of faith, this is embedded in our constitutions. It is thus for the people to decide when respecting one's faith is natural to the ideas of liberty and tolerance within such a constitutional construction, and when the (non-elected) religious authorities simply have too much sway within the system of a modern, lay democracy. They do this by the types of candidates they are willing to vote for into office.

Unfortunately, so long as the people continue to give value to the religious authorities, they, by nature, like to try and organize society according to their beliefs and frequently succeed in doing so by conditioning the politcal debates and social convictions.

 

[Cobblestoned]

First tumults now in France - first tickets for Burkas, and women taken to policestation to show her face.

Hmm, this whole development reminds me of something. Won't go into details here.
Just look where I come from.

 

[Le breton]

First tumults now in France - first tickets for Burkas, ...........
Just look where I come from.

Just look where I come from
let me guess, radio Bin Laden maybe?

The google censorship on google.fr is terrible, no mention of it at all. Luckily cyclingnews forum keeps us informed.

 

[forty four]

im in cali we have plenty of devote muslims even a small community near my house. i have never even seen one of the full head to toe covers only basic veils where the face is still visible very common. i wonder why very uncommon in the us at least where i am.

 

[forty four]

Who or what is hideing behind the dress up. we have to remove bike helmets and motorbike helmets if we go into a Post office or a Bank so should everyone else uncover their face for security.

We dont know who we are dealing with . could have a gun under the dress.

i go into banks with helmet sunglasses etc.. and post offices etc.. never ever ever had someone say 1 word to me about it and this is all over the us so i have no idea what you mean by this.

 

[forty four]

Can someone explain to me why muslim women have to cover themselves up(obviosuly they choose the extent of that) and men do not have to?

from some women i have talked to its about not being a sexual object to men around them thats one thing i have heard some like wearing them for that reason.
whatever floats your boat just leave me be and well get along fine is how i see things.
latitudes and attitudes is all it is never going to change.
i highly dislike all religions equally as they make big problems but more than religion poverty is the main cause of violence world wide. the have vs the have not. i understand muslim anger to a degree.

 

[Le breton]

Very good post especially the bolded part. I hate it when people start blasting rap out, especially on public transport where the signs say not to do it. Notice how its never classical btw. 99% of the time its rap.
............

Thanks

40 years ago I spent one year in New Mexico, almost within radiationf allout from White Sands . I would go to Ciudad Juarez (a quiet place at the time) whenever there was a race series in town (not much action then in New Mexico apart from Sandia Crest climb and a few odd events organized by George Gamble, A British guy).

When cycling through town in biking gear guys would whistle at me (not girls unfortunately).

Funny when you think about it. Change occurs pretty fast sometimes.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

im in cali we have plenty of devote muslims even a small community near my house. i have never even seen one of the full head to toe covers only basic veils where the face is still visible very common. i wonder why very uncommon in the us at least where i am.

Oh, but a burqa is very uncommon in Europe too. A big majority of muslim women wear only a hijab (doesn't cover the face) or nothing.

 

[forty four]

Oh, but a burqa is very uncommon in Europe too. A big majority of muslim women wear only a hijab (doesn't cover the face) or nothing.

ohh so i guess the full cover is uncommon in europe as well at least where you at.

 

[forty four]

not a big rap fan most very annoying some quite good. i find utterly nothing more offensive than blasted country music makes all white people seem very very stupid and or simple minded.
blast some rock of various genres that is a better representation of white boy music....

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Oh, but a burqa is very uncommon in Europe too. A big majority of muslim women wear only a hijab (doesn't cover the face) or nothing.

Great maybe they should wear it then. Cover the face ...what a disgrace. Shroud the head its time to follow the hale bopp comet.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

not a big rap fan most very annoying some quite good. i find utterly nothing more offensive than blasted country music makes all white people seem very very stupid and or simple minded.
blast some rock of various genres that is a better representation of white boy music....

What I really enjoy is when I am listening to the news in the morning on my Sat... radio and ....it is drowned out by some great RAP song in the early AM. Nothing says good morning like some loud azzz RAP. Great world.

 

[hughmoore]

Can someone explain to me some basics.

At what age do the girls start being fully covered in public?

How do they find a partner if a potential husband/boyfriend cant see there face?


Thanks


Hugh

 

[Spare Tyre]

i go into banks with helmet sunglasses etc.. and post offices etc.. never ever ever had someone say 1 word to me about it and this is all over the us so i have no idea what you mean by this.

In Australia there are signs outside banks requiring the removal of motorcyle helments. It is for security reasons.

I don't think the regulation applies to bike helmets because they don't obscure the face, but I have never tried wearing mine in such a place so I don't know for sure.

 

[hughmoore]

In Australia, you cant wear hooded sweaters/tops when playing pokies either.

Assume is so you cant hide your embarrasment of being stupid enough to throw your money away.


Hugh

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Can someone explain to me some basics.

At what age do the girls start being fully covered in public?

How do they find a partner if a potential husband/boyfriend cant see there face?


Thanks

Hugh

Like I said, only a small minority of muslim girls cover their face in public (at least in Europe, but also in most of the muslim countries). Most wear a hijab or nothing.

How do they find a parter? By there parents I assume. (this doesn't mean the parents have full control over marriage: parents choose potential marriage partners but the sun/daughter can refuse the partner -till a certain level)

As for what age they start wearing it. It depends. I don't think you'll see girls wear it before puberty. In highschool some do wear a hijab, but still mostly a minority. Basically (at least before they are married, and mostly also after) it's there own choice. I heard muslim women say they don't wear the hijab, because they don't feel they are ready for it. Don't really know what that means though...