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Frankie and Floyd phone call

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May 5, 2009
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Mongol_Waaijer said:
I would love to know what Jan Ulrich thinks. He surely knows that while he tried to take as little dope as he could, he lost out year after year to a fraud with way less talent than him who just shot up more EPO and got away with it.

Or does Jan need to keep denying he "used" to avoid perjuring himself?

Although I can't stand PHARMstrong, they have all been cheating each other. Armstrong's strong will and determination would have helped him to win also at least 5 if not all 7 Tours had the entire field been clean. I have no illusion that any of his contenders was substantially cleaner.

But PHARMstrong might have had a major advantage because his team "always knew when the blood testers were going to be there", and it seems his Belgian and Irish links to the UCI swampland was very helpful in certain situations..
 
131313 said:
As far as Contador (and any other rider) though, he's wasn't business partners with someone who basically controlled the governing body of the sport which it was supposed to by policing? That's the fundamental difference.

If I was LA & Bruyneel, I'd be wise not to drag Contador into this mess, because if he's touched, AC can prove & confirm that the doping practices from 2000 to 2003 that they're accused for, are very alive nowadays-and that would be the last thing they'd like to face with this thing ready to blow. as for AC, he'd be out for 2 years and comeback while LA & the Hog are doing Jail time either in the US or France

so do the math..
 
Jun 16, 2009
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la.margna said:
Armstrong's strong will and determination would have helped him to win also at least 5 if not all 7 Tours had the entire field been clean.

Nonsense. The doping expertise of Ferrari turned him from a decent classics rider to a climbing and time trialling machine.

Wuthout doping Lance would have remained a half decent classics rider and nothing more. He might just have given up fewer minutes to guys like Zulle on climbs and long time trials. He simply didn't have the threshold power and the freakishly high V02 max.

You have to remember Armstrongs "success" prior to cancer and Ferrari was nothing spectacular. A weather affected World Championships, and some "midweek" tour stages...he was hardly Paolo Bettini or Sean Kelly.
 
bridgeman said:
Sure, maybe all the pros are doping. But I just don't know for sure what thier programs are. One other observation; it's been apparent that there are fewer new young riders getting into cycling lately. All my friends have been remarking about this fact. Hardly any new young people showing up. It's no surprise really.

This would be an interesting topic outside The Clinic.

Cyclingin the U.S. has become a sport of middle aged, upper middle class people who want to keep fit. It is closing in on triathlon in that respect.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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hfer07 said:
If I was LA & Bruyneel, I'd be wise not to drag Contador into this mess, because if he's touched, AC can prove & confirm that the doping practices from 2000 to 2003 that they're accused for, are very alive nowadays-and that would be the last thing they'd like to face with this thing ready to blow. as for AC, he'd be out for 2 years and comeback while LA & the Hog are doing Jail time either in the US or France

so do the math..

They'll only do it if they're going down anyway. Obviously if they're going to escape jail time, then nobody will be ratted out. But if Armstrong is going down, then he'll take some others with him... and Contador (who he dislikes) will be a prime target.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
They'll only do it if they're going down anyway. Obviously if they're going to escape jail time, then nobody will be ratted out. But if Armstrong is going down, then he'll take some others with him... and Contador (who he dislikes) will be a prime target.
Very good if Lance, Bruyneel, McQuaid and Verbruggen can take a lot of other dopers with them.
 
May 26, 2010
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kurtinsc said:
.... But if Armstrong is going down, then he'll take some others with him... and Contador (who he dislikes) will be a prime target.

how can he get at Contador, who is Spanish and their protection of Peurto and Valverde......Contador might do 8months to a year for blood irregularities max, but unless the whole UCI/Armstrong house of cards comes down it'll only affect US riders and the knock on affect within cycling having sponsorship vastly reduced in europe...
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Mongol_Waaijer said:
Nonsense. The doping expertise of Ferrari turned him from a decent classics rider to a climbing and time trialling machine.

Wuthout doping Lance would have remained a half decent classics rider and nothing more. He might just have given up fewer minutes to guys like Zulle on climbs and long time trials. He simply didn't have the threshold power and the freakishly high V02 max.

You have to remember Armstrongs "success" prior to cancer and Ferrari was nothing spectacular. A weather affected World Championships, and some "midweek" tour stages...he was hardly Paolo Bettini or Sean Kelly.

You are assuming the rest of the field (or even a significant portion of it) was clean or cleaner then Lance.

It's just as possible that when Lance started doping, he simply got on a program similar to what someone like Zulle was already on. Based on doping positives and suspected dopers... I tend to believe that more then the idea that Lance's stuff was superior to what everyone else was using... because it's VERY clear that the others weren't clean.

Bettini won LBL in 2000... at 26 years old. That was his first major 1-day result (unless you include 2nd at Milano-Torino the year before).

Lance was just starting his cancer comeback at 26 and had won San Sebastian, finished 2nd there, finished 2nd twice at LBL, and won Worlds.


At that point in their careers (26 year olds), Bettini was not really ahead of Lance in terms of results. Both got most of their major results at later ages... Lance in the TDF and Bettini in 1-days. But as 25-26 year olds... some would say Lance had the edge in terms of what he'd shown on the road as a 1-day rider.


I still marvel how people belittle his classics results pre-cancer. He was probably still doped up then, but a 25 year old having 2 second place finishes at (arguably) the biggest 1-day climbing classic in LBL, a win and a 2nd in a highly regarded 1-day classic in San Sebastian and a world championship (along with a couple of tour stage wins) should be considered a pretty solid show of potential as a 1-day rider. Are there really a ton of guys who had much more then that at 25?
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
how can he get at Contador, who is Spanish and their protection of Peurto and Valverde......Contador might do 8months to a year for blood irregularities max, but unless the whole UCI/Armstrong house of cards comes down it'll only affect US riders and the knock on affect within cycling having sponsorship vastly reduced in europe...

If Armstrong goes down (as in jail time), he'll turn evidence on everyone he doesn't like.

He doesn't like Contador.

Now if anything will come of it... who knows?
 
Aug 3, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
You are assuming the rest of the field (or even a significant portion of it) was clean or cleaner then Lance.

It's just as possible that when Lance started doping, he simply got on a program similar to what someone like Zulle was already on. Based on doping positives and suspected dopers... I tend to believe that more then the idea that Lance's stuff was superior to what everyone else was using... because it's VERY clear that the others weren't clean.

Bettini won LBL in 2000... at 26 years old. That was his first major 1-day result (unless you include 2nd at Milano-Torino the year before).

Lance was just starting his cancer comeback at 26 and had won San Sebastian, finished 2nd there, finished 2nd twice at LBL, and won Worlds.


At that point in their careers (26 year olds), Bettini was not really ahead of Lance in terms of results. Both got most of their major results at later ages... Lance in the TDF and Bettini in 1-days. But as 25-26 year olds... some would say Lance had the edge in terms of what he'd shown on the road as a 1-day rider.


I still marvel how people belittle his classics results pre-cancer. He was probably still doped up then, but a 25 year old having 2 second place finishes at (arguably) the biggest 1-day climbing classic in LBL, a win and a 2nd in a highly regarded 1-day classic in San Sebastian and a world championship (along with a couple of tour stage wins) should be considered a pretty solid show of potential as a 1-day rider. Are there really a ton of guys who had much more then that at 25?
It's funny how you've suddenly become so defensive lately, with all that childish "Everyone else is doing it too" arguing technique. Yes, everyone else does it, but does that change the fact that Armstrong is a manipulative doper?
 
kurtinsc said:
If Armstrong goes down (as in jail time), he'll turn evidence on everyone he doesn't like.

He doesn't like Contador.

Now if anything will come of it... who knows?
Bring it on.

More dopers falling down. That's what we need.

But Contador won't do jail because he will admit quickly and do his 2 years and come back to win more TdF.:p
 
Nov 17, 2009
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MrContador said:
It's funny how you've suddenly become so defensive lately, with all that childish "Everyone else is doing it too" arguing technique. Yes, everyone else does it, but does that change the fact that Armstrong is a manipulative doper?

No it doesn't.

I've said from the beginning that he is a doper... and that everyone else is as well. (or at least the famous ones... I'm sure there are some guys not doping, I just don't think they every accomplish much).

I've got no problem with how cycling is now... I think the playing field is fairly even. I'd have no problem with a completely clean cycling.

But as I said... I'm still partial to riders from my country. I admit my nationalism. And I AM a little worried that the way this is looking to play out is that US cycling will be trashed... but the rest of the world will still be doped.

And that does bother me.

I like to see guys from my country do well... but if they have to ride clean against doped riders... we'll be getting results like the French have the past decade.
 
kurtinsc said:
If Armstrong goes down (as in jail time), he'll turn evidence on everyone he doesn't like.

He doesn't like Contador.

Now if anything will come of it... who knows?

I have no problem with that at all. I don't really care who goes down as long as our sport gets cleaner.

Funny how Lance fans have chosen to focus on attacking Floyd or attacking Contador. Not one second of introspection.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
I have no problem with that at all. I don't really care who goes down as long as our sport gets cleaner.

Funny how Lance fans have chosen to focus on attacking Floyd or attacking Contador. Not one second of introspection.

I hate having to say this over and over... BUT I'M NOT A LANCE FAN.

I DO like other US cyclists... Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Horner... heck I even liked Floyd when he was riding.

If Lance was the only one going down, I'd shrug my shoulders... just like when Valverde was implicated or Di Luca or Ricco got caught (I actually liked Ricco MUCH more then Lance). The sport has lost plenty of entertaining riders to a positive test... it happens. I generally don't care about the doping as I've always believed the whole group is doped.

The problem is that the more the comes out, the more it targets US cycling... almost exclusively.

And as a fan of US cyclists... that kind of sucks.

You may think that it's fine because anything that makes the sport cleaner is good. I can understand that to a degree. But I look at what happened to french cycling after Festina and that's what I see on the horizon for US cycling if this comes to fruition. I don't see guys like Contador, Evans, Menchov or the Schlecks stopping their doping... I just see the US (like the French) largely competing undoped against doped competition.

And let's be honest... that means no US rider will do anything much. I think most fans on this site would be similarly put out if it looked like all the riders from their country were going down and their system was going to become totally clean... but the rest of cycling would stay doped.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
No it doesn't.

I've said from the beginning that he is a doper... and that everyone else is as well. (or at least the famous ones... I'm sure there are some guys not doping, I just don't think they every accomplish much).

I've got no problem with how cycling is now... I think the playing field is fairly even. I'd have no problem with a completely clean cycling.

But as I said... I'm still partial to riders from my country. I admit my nationalism. And I AM a little worried that the way this is looking to play out is that US cycling will be trashed... but the rest of the world will still be doped.

And that does bother me.

I like to see guys from my country do well... but if they have to ride clean against doped riders... we'll be getting results like the French have the past decade.
.....................
..But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I’ll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets – this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
I DO like other US cyclists... Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Horner... heck I even liked Floyd when he was riding.

To borrow Ben Jacques-Mayne's twitter comment, do you want to cheer for false heroes?

USAC/USCF has been playing the 'we're just doing this to keep up game' since the 80's when they were doping up juniors and and the Olympic team. Look where it's gotten us.

No thanks.
 
I've heard that claim before, sorry if true. And it probably is. :(

Guys, I don't know what Frankie could even say at this point that he hasn't already said. He left USPS nearly two years before Floyd even joined. He also was a workhorse, not one of the chosen ones with glitter in his eyes and the Ferrari's of the world clamoring to assist him.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
To borrow Ben Jacques-Mayne's twitter comment, do you want to cheer for false heroes?

USAC/USCF has been playing the 'we're just doing this to keep up game' since the 80's when they were doping up juniors and and the Olympic team. Look where it's gotten us.

No thanks.
and have AEG and MEssick give over his rightly deserved leader's jersey to Bottle leipheimer
 
May 15, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
I hate having to say this over and over... BUT I'M NOT A LANCE FAN.

I DO like other US cyclists... Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer, Horner... heck I even liked Floyd when he was riding.

If Lance was the only one going down, I'd shrug my shoulders... just like when Valverde was implicated or Di Luca or Ricco got caught (I actually liked Ricco MUCH more then Lance). The sport has lost plenty of entertaining riders to a positive test... it happens. I generally don't care about the doping as I've always believed the whole group is doped.

The problem is that the more the comes out, the more it targets US cycling... almost exclusively.

And as a fan of US cyclists... that kind of sucks.

You may think that it's fine because anything that makes the sport cleaner is good. I can understand that to a degree. But I look at what happened to french cycling after Festina and that's what I see on the horizon for US cycling if this comes to fruition. I don't see guys like Contador, Evans, Menchov or the Schlecks stopping their doping... I just see the US (like the French) largely competing undoped against doped competition.

And let's be honest... that means no US rider will do anything much. I think most fans on this site would be similarly put out if it looked like all the riders from their country were going down and their system was going to become totally clean... but the rest of cycling would stay doped.

So being competitive and doped is better??

I don't for one minute think US cycling would end up completely clean, but even if it did(and if the French mainly are), at least that'd be two down several to go.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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131313 said:
I think I'd worry less about individual riders and worry more about the alleged corruption with the sport's various governing bodies. Contador isn't the real problem...

absolutely agree - i've been saying so over and over - top down has to be the mantra - even Lance and Contador are just riders - high profile disgrace of supposed 'bad apples' of their stature will only last a little longer than most but wont change a thing - you dont think pantani was high profile in italia ? or virenque in france? jan in germany? in france they assume Lance is more or less a doper of yesteryear anyway- i'm delighted this forum seems to be moving away from 'did he didnt he' (he did by the way) towards mcquaid and the doctors and facilitators -call me naive but riders dont grow up wanting to dope - the path lance took is one a lot of decent guys did- the clean road is fraught with disappointment and psychological trauma and most who took it have been damaged more than the dopers - who have TV jobs, DS jobs, etc.
 
May 15, 2009
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fruit bars with eyes said:
absolutely agree - i've been saying so over and over - top down has to be the mantra - even Lance and Contador are just riders - high profile disgrace of supposed 'bad apples' of their stature will only last a little longer than most but wont change a thing - you dont think pantani was high profile in italia ? or virenque in france? jan in germany? in france they assume Lance is more or less a doper of yesteryear anyway- i'm delighted this forum seems to be moving away from 'did he didnt he' (he did by the way) towards mcquaid and the doctors and facilitators -call me naive but riders dont grow up wanting to dope - the path lance took is one a lot of decent guys did- the clean road is fraught with disappointment and psychological trauma and most who took it have been damaged more than the dopers - who have TV jobs, DS jobs, etc.

True, but Lance seems to carry a bit more weight(ie, money) in cycling than those other riders.
 
Jul 29, 2009
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RhodriM said:
True, but Lance seems to carry a bit more weight(ie, money) in cycling than those other riders.

of course, you're right, but if the system can sustain eddy merckx positive and continue it needs fixed by cutting off the blood supply (see what i did there?:D)
 

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