F'up: Machado and Bruyneel

[Jonathan]

I do not believe it is proper to point an accusitive finger at anyone for any reason unless you have solid evidence.

Let's continue this discussion in the Clinic then, the place for improper accusations.

No, there is no clear evidence against Machado. However, it may be useful to remind us of what Jesús Manzano said: once you want to reach a certain level, you have to start doping. It is possible this choice was offered to Machado and he decided to start competing at the top level.

 

[flicker]

Let's continue this discussion in the Clinic then, the place for improper accusations.

No, there is no clear evidence against Machado. However, it may be useful to remind us of what Jesús Manzano said: once you want to reach a certain level, you have to start doping. It is possible this choice was offered to Machado and he decided to start competing at the top level.

I hat to say this but I think you are right,

In the US I would guess that the jump to doping would be in amatuers transitioning from Catagory 3/4 to Cat 1/2.


Just a guess, no hard evidence. Don't ask don't tell.... just like the US military Verdad?

 

[Red Lobster]

In the US I would guess that the jump to doping would be in amatuers transitioning from Catagory 3/4 to Cat 1/2.

??? That's a joke, right?

 

[flicker]

??? That's a joke, right?

Just at a race talking to a top cat 3 rider. Shrug of the shoulder and a knowing smile and a polite smile. You had to be there.

When a rider goes to the next level the rider goes to the next level.

Nothing funny bout that.

 

[Andrichuk]

I hope for the riders sake they don't have to dope to go from 3 to 1/2.

 

[Yo Momma]

If someone has to dope to go from a 3 to 2 , they should find another sport

 

[JayZee]

Just at a race talking to a top cat 3 rider. Shrug of the shoulder and a knowing smile and a polite smile. You had to be there.

When a rider goes to the next level the rider goes to the next level.

Nothing funny bout that.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe cat 1/2 to pro would require doping for some people, but not all. But cat 3 to cat 1/2? I know plenty of guys who have moved from cat 3 to cat 1/2 and they weren't on the juice. I am sure there may be some isolated cases of a cat 3 doping to move up, but if he/she needs dope to do that then they are not going very far with their cycling career.

 

[issoisso]

I'll be the first to say most portuguese riders are on drugs. It's a fact. I've heard a bunch of names called at me from portuguese fans more times than I can count, only to be proven right about teams and riders time and time again.

But in Machado's case, I'm not so sure. I know two pro riders aside from Machado, and his reputation is kinda "the idiot who thinks he'll actually win without doping".

Wouldn't shock me if he's on something, but if other pros think that about him, then I'd say it's more likely he isn't.

That said, if he isn't on anything, he's not going to go far beyond his current level unless the sport cleans itself up or unless he's an elite talent. And I don't think either is the case.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Or, to be fair to Tiago, some of his attacking instinct is reined in. Part of what made him fun in the first place was that he was the kind of rider who'd attack simply because the day was called Sábado, Domingo or had a number in it, but if he were to rein that in and ride a more intelligent race, he could get better results. The Portuguese cycling scene is pretty horrendous for doping, worse even than Spain, but Tiago came from Madeinox-Boavista, which, all things considered, is probably about as clean a team as you're going to get in that scene. We've all heard the stories about Paulinho telling Machado "you were the last. Lance says no more Portuguese" after the three Liberty Seguros riders (two of whom were Spaniards!) tested positive; but it's probably better for young Portuguese talents like Machado and Rui Costa that they are removed from the cauldron of the Volta early (even if they've gone to Radioshack and Caisse d'Epargne respectively, hardly walking adverts for clean cycling).

I like Tiago. He's fun to watch. He'll probably never fulfil his potential as long as he remains entertaining, but if he's clean, then all power to him. If he's not, oh well, back to the drawing board.

 

[flicker]

That is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe cat 1/2 to pro would require doping for some people, but not all. But cat 3 to cat 1/2? I know plenty of guys who have moved from cat 3 to cat 1/2 and they weren't on the juice. I am sure there may be some isolated cases of a cat 3 doping to move up, but if he/she needs dope to do that then they are not going very far with their cycling career.

You are probably right. Me wrong. At what point in career would you guess Ricardo Rico and who is that Rabobank rider Micheal Dekker? began using PEDs. Just curious to what you think, just a speculation.

 

[David Suro]

When I began racing in 1987, I had two team mates that were Cat 4's who began using anabolic steroids. They progressed from being mediocre 4's to dominant 2's in one season. Guys who could barely hang on to the back of hard training rides quickly became capable of riding away from the group during toen-sign sprints. It was amazing to see the level of improvement they attained.

I know this is an anecdotal case, but it happened.

I also knew many riders who were very successful at the local, regional, and national levels who did not use PED's.

Drug use exists in cycling at every level imaginable.

 

[JPM London]

You are probably right. Me wrong. At what point in career would you guess Ricardo Rico and who is that Rabobank rider Micheal Dekker? began using PEDs. Just curious to what you think, just a speculation.

As for Ricco I remember an interview in a cycling magazine not too long ago where they mention there were rumours from back when he was a junior rider. Will just try and see if I can dig it out from wherever it's hiding to see if I can find a source...

As for the US categorised talk, none of that means anything to me, but what I notice is all the talk from both Lemond, Lance and so on about how much harder European cycling is compared to US cycling and that you can easily be a US champ, but last in a European race. To me that at least says something about where you dope a lot and where you don't...

 

[VeloCity]

Somewhat related, there was a survey a few years back of college hockey players with regards to the use of ephedrine, amphetamines, and pseudoephedrine - 58% admitted to using one or both substances at some point in their college career and 33% said they would use banned substances if it meant getting to the NHL.

Those are what, 17-22 year-olds or so? And they're already using banned substances, and many wouldn't hesitate to use them if they thought it necessary to make it to the professional level. And of course, those are only the ones who admit to doping - probably safe to assume that the real figure is higher. Granted, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine use isn't quite the same as EPO or blood doping, but it's the cavalier attitude toward doping at that age that is most disturbing.

Think amateur cyclists of that age are any different? I have no evidence to back it up, but I have no doubt that, give a 19-year-old kid the chance to make it as a pro cyclist IF he doped, there's many who would jump at the chance without a second thought.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20086423

 

[Anonymous]

I know a Cat 2 who raced in the mid 90's who would go to Mexico for his EPO once every year. Hey, some people want to win really, really badly. Funny too is that he went to Italy to race some amateur races...and got blown away doped to the gills. I laughed because regardless of whether or not the Italians were juiced, knowing he got his a$$ beat was funny. The guy was kind of a prick.

 

[Green Tea]

Also, VO2 wasn't the limiting factor to Cancellara's performance at the Paris-Roubaix, rendering EPO/HGH useless.

 

[JayZee]

I know a Cat 2 who raced in the mid 90's who would go to Mexico for his EPO once every year. Hey, some people want to win really, really badly. Funny too is that he went to Italy to race some amateur races...and got blown away doped to the gills. I laughed because regardless of whether or not the Italians were juiced, knowing he got his a$$ beat was funny. The guy was kind of a prick.

That is a good example of my point. I guess I don't know any young cat 3s that are trying to become professionals, so there is that possibility that those guys may risk the dopage to upgrade and keep moving up. However, again, if you need dope to move up to and compete as a cat 1/2 then you don't have much talent to begin with and you are going to get waxed by pros doped or not.

 

[ferryman]

Is it just me but is he not the oldest looking 24 yr old you have ever seen. Not sure what I am implying there!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Just at a race talking to a top cat 3 rider. Shrug of the shoulder and a knowing smile and a polite smile. You had to be there.

When a rider goes to the next level the rider goes to the next level.

Nothing funny bout that.

I'm certain pro's dope, but I love the attitude of so many failed crit riders on here that you need to be doped to compete at an amateur level.


Up there with the 6W/Kg is physically impossible without dope brigade.

On the science of sport website I saw 5.6 put forward as a physiological limit in 1 debate - some people really need to stop believing their own limit is the best anyone else could achieve.

 

[Willy_Voet]

I know a Cat 2 who raced in the mid 90's who would go to Mexico for his EPO once every year. Hey, some people want to win really, really badly. Funny too is that he went to Italy to race some amateur races...and got blown away doped to the gills. I laughed because regardless of whether or not the Italians were juiced, knowing he got his a$$ beat was funny. The guy was kind of a prick.

Joey D'Antoni. You've probably never heard of him. That's b/c he was middle of the pack fodder in mid-Atlantic. Got busted for EPO maybe 5 years back. Think he made the Wikipedia page on doping.

Masters racers are worse. They've got the money to afford extra supplements.

Probably not like Europe, but a noticeable few use something.

It's sad. But...anything for the $150 at the parking lot circuit race...

 

[MonteCristo]

some people really need to stop believing their own limit is the best anyone else could achieve.

Damn good point!!

 

[craig1985]

If I took PEDs and won, I would only get $50 at the most. Nah, rolling your sleeves up and doing training, and plenty of racing to build form and fitness FTW.