Future of grand tours

[The Hitch]

Bro deal i remember 2 years ago in a similar discussion (seems to be one after every tour) suggested an idea which i thought was great at the time which was to put all the prize money (or lots of it) into the combativity prize.

Also while we are at it put uci points there.

Want to be even more radical. time bonifications top of every mountain and, especially at points of the final mountain.

 

[Kender]

Also what about those puncture proof tires which from what i hear are heavier and aerodynamic (or whatever the physical version of that is) therefore slower therefore less slipstream up mountains.

At the same time, less punctures which screw everything up.

heavy wheels = slower accelerations (but fine when up to speed)
more constant speed up hills = advantage to the TT diesels

so that would only work with low TT km's

 

[gthx_gthx_]

Why did they even remove time bonification in the first place in the tour for example ? What was the problem ?

 

[The Hitch]

Why did they even remove time bonification in the first place in the tour for example ? What was the problem ?

An english speaking rider lost to a spanish one on time bonifications.

 

[Kender]

On a side note, what do you guys think of national teams in GTs?

it's nice in theory but cycling is a professional sport. If you have Country teams in GT's then you either have to limit the times based on WT points (which is how olympic invites are done) or allow all the teams the same number of riders.

Scenario 1) Countries without large number of riders will just simply not be able to compete. Who in their right mind would want to do a GT with just 2 riders? How many countries are you going to let in?

Scenario 2) all countries allowed the same number of riders. Nice in theory, but in practice, the GT's get watered down with riders that would not normally be good enough to attend in the current environment. and again... How many countries are you going to let in?

This is particularly important as countries with small numbers of riders in current GT teams like NZ, SA, JP (and many many others) would just not get to race. Therefore their countries don't get that exposure to big races and the sport won't see growth. Look what Cuddles did to cycling in Aussie. The UK is experiencing record numbers of registrations also due to Wiggo and Froome

In short, leave it as is

 

[wannab]

Some good, funny and interesting points here so far

Giro used to have downhill TTs if I'm not mistaken

really .. a downhill TT is far fetched hehe, makes me think of some Redbull event rather than a GT

9. Stage with two steep cat 1 climbs (no valley in between) finishing after technical descent

technical descent finish would be good alternative to downhill TT instead

Two to three time trials, however, only one would be 50km+, the other would be around 20km and would ideally be similar in nature to the one that was used in Pais Vasco earlier this season, tight, hilly, and technical; the third being a prologue/TTT and not every year.

Yes, very different types of TT's would be more interesting

add one Alberto Contador Velasco and any lack of excitement is resolved

Contador's style provides excitement indeed, on the other hand sometimes dominance too Ideally all top dogs should be there at 100% .. but that's just utopia and without the reach of the organizers

get ride of race radio
...HRM and power meters.

I hope they do get rid of the race radio, it even causes crashes due to the nervousness of the DS etc. I hadn't thought about the power meters though, I think it's influence may not be underestimated! Good point (HRM says far far less so I dont mind that)

bring back bonus seconds. It makes GC contenders want to fight for position 1-3 more.

Yep, that's why I said it too! Don't know why they don't use it anymore, just stupid

21. 60km Hilly ITT

I always liked the last day TT in the Giro. Now the last stage of the TDF is negligible cus nothing happens beside the sprint. I doubt they will touch that but maybe a flat TT in paris can be replace that.

 

[Kender]

I always liked the last day TT in the Giro. Now the last stage of the TDF is negligible cus nothing happens beside the sprint. I doubt they will touch that but maybe a flat TT in paris can be replace that.

the sprint on the Champs-Élysées is never dull. the riders all arrive ont he circuit fresh and breakaways always form. yes it's true they always get caught, but the speeds they race to catch them is just wow.

was great seeing Jens out there this time

 

[luckyboy]

Give every rider a hit of CERA to use for one stage only as they wish

Would be chaos.

 

[wannab]

the sprint on the Champs-Élysées is never dull. the riders all arrive ont he circuit fresh and breakaways always form. yes it's true they always get caught, but the speeds they race to catch them is just wow.

was great seeing Jens out there this time

True, once they hit the Champs-Elysees it's a nice fight to get away and the speeds are captured beautifully.
However, as you said too, fact remains that it's 99,99% certain they're gonna sprint for it

 

[Caruut]

Some may have covered these already, but my ideal grand tour would comprise be:

1. Prologue
2. Medium mountain stage
3. Flat stage
4. 20km ITT
5. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
6. Long mountain stage with at least 3 1/HC climbs, finishing at the end of a descent (about 250km)
7. Flat stage
8. Ardennes-style stage
9. Mountain stage finishing on a descent.
10. Mountain stage with a 1/HC MTF and at least one other 1/HC climb.
Rest day
11. Flat stage
12. Flat stage
13. Flat stage
14. Medium mountain stage
15. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
16. Ardennes-style stage
17. Flat stage
18. Long mountain stage with 2 1/HC climbs before the finish and finishing on an HC (250km or so)
19. 30km ITT

I might have been a bit harsh on the riders, but there is method in the madness (I think).

The flat stages have been kept away from the very start of the race. The first week is far too nervy and far too many contenders risk losing their chances before any real racing. Have some proper time gaps so that the GC pretenders are not jostling for places up front, so medium mountain stage and ITTs occur in the first few days.

Longer and shorter mountain stage should hopefully lead to different riders feeling strongest on each, so creating time gaps. Making sure that there is minimal flat between the second-last and last climb should allow riders sitting slightly further down on GC to make longer attacks like De Gendt on Mortirolo leading to the Stelvio.

The bulk of the flat stages come in the third quarter. The riders get a break before the final flurry of racing, and the first and last weeks should be quite interesting. One more rest day replaces excess flat stages.

The final mountain stage should be the setting for an epic - someone could crack hugely or another could mount a heroic attack. Legends could be made (hopefully).

The last TT would then be the final stage into Milan, Paris or Madrid. The finish of LeMond beating the late great Laurent Fignon in 1989 has got to be one of the greatest moments in cycling. To me, maintaining racing until the last day is important.

Only 19 stages because this has probably been quite a tough tour.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I'd ban race radios and power meters and restrict teams to 7 riders.

 

[roundabout]

How many riders did it take for Sky to control the mountains this year? 7 helpers, Cavendish/Eisel count as 1 rider, so about 6 people.

Yeah, I can see why the number of riders per team needs to go down to 6.

 

[Kender]

How many riders did it take for Sky to control the mountains this year? 7 helpers, Cavendish/Eisel count as 1 rider, so about 6 people.

Yeah, I can see why the number of riders per team needs to go down to 6.

6 +2. they lost 1 early on. you can't really say Eisel and Cav helped much in the mountains though

 

[The Hitch]

Some may have covered these already, but my ideal grand tour would comprise be:

1. Prologue
2. Medium mountain stage
3. Flat stage
4. 20km ITT
5. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
6. Long mountain stage with at least 3 1/HC climbs, finishing at the end of a descent (about 250km)
7. Flat stage
8. Ardennes-style stage
9. Mountain stage finishing on a descent.
10. Mountain stage with a 1/HC MTF and at least one other 1/HC climb.
Rest day
11. Flat stage
12. Flat stage
13. Flat stage
14. Medium mountain stage
15. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
16. Ardennes-style stage
17. Flat stage
18. Long mountain stage with 2 1/HC climbs before the finish and finishing on an HC (250km or so)
19. 30km ITT

I think only Vuelta could manage this on a regular basis. Giro probably could on occasion, when starting in the north, going south after the early alpes stage and using some of the few great climbs they have there for the medium mountain stages and hc finish, then going north again for the final week but for me gts should shift around a lot from year to year.

tour certainly difficult to see them doing it without confining it to a small area,

 

[Kender]

Give every rider a hit of CERA to use for one stage only as they wish

Would be chaos.

wrong place for this sort of talk

 

[Kender]

Some may have covered these already, but my ideal grand tour would comprise be:

1. Prologue
2. Medium mountain stage
3. Flat stage
4. 20km ITT
5. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
6. Long mountain stage with at least 3 1/HC climbs, finishing at the end of a descent (about 250km)
7. Flat stage
8. Ardennes-style stage
9. Mountain stage finishing on a descent.
10. Mountain stage with a 1/HC MTF and at least one other 1/HC climb.
Rest day
11. Flat stage
12. Flat stage
13. Flat stage
14. Medium mountain stage
15. Short mountain stage with HC MTF (less than 130km)
Rest day
16. Ardennes-style stage
17. Flat stage
18. Long mountain stage with 2 1/HC climbs before the finish and finishing on an HC (250km or so)
19. 30km ITT

I might have been a bit harsh on the riders, but there is method in the madness (I think).

The flat stages have been kept away from the very start of the race. The first week is far too nervy and far too many contenders risk losing their chances before any real racing. Have some proper time gaps so that the GC pretenders are not jostling for places up front, so medium mountain stage and ITTs occur in the first few days.

Longer and shorter mountain stage should hopefully lead to different riders feeling strongest on each, so creating time gaps. Making sure that there is minimal flat between the second-last and last climb should allow riders sitting slightly further down on GC to make longer attacks like De Gendt on Mortirolo leading to the Stelvio.

The bulk of the flat stages come in the third quarter. The riders get a break before the final flurry of racing, and the first and last weeks should be quite interesting. One more rest day replaces excess flat stages.

The final mountain stage should be the setting for an epic - someone could crack hugely or another could mount a heroic attack. Legends could be made (hopefully).

The last TT would then be the final stage into Milan, Paris or Madrid. The finish of LeMond beating the late great Laurent Fignon in 1989 has got to be one of the greatest moments in cycling. To me, maintaining racing until the last day is important.

Only 19 stages because this has probably been quite a tough tour.

EDIT: Oh yes, and I'd ban race radios and power meters and restrict teams to 7 riders.

long stages with big hills finishing in a MTF = boring stage for all but the last climb. no one will do anything at all until that last climb.

 

[Caruut]

I think only Vuelta could manage this on a regular basis. Giro probably could on occasion, when starting in the north, going south after the early alpes stage and using some of the few great climbs they have there for the medium mountain stages and hc finish, then going north again for the final week but for me gts should shift around a lot from year to year.

tour certainly difficult to see them doing it without confining it to a small area,

That was really just an example. I think the principle of mixing the racing as much as possible is essential.

I think perhaps a hilly criterium in a town or city would make a great 1st week stage. If it was early on enough that most riders stood a chance of yellow if they finished well, we could see lots of attacks.

Certainly having pathetic stages for the foreign starts is a ridiculous waste of terrain.

 

[Caruut]

long stages with big hills finishing in a MTF = boring stage for all but the last climb. no one will do anything at all until that last climb.

Take out race radios and I think that might change. Besides part of the point of putting in a very long stage is to shake up the strengths of the riders. Maybe I would just have the one.

 

[Kender]

Take out race radios and I think that might change. Besides part of the point of putting in a very long stage is to shake up the strengths of the riders. Maybe I would just have the one.

GC contenders will not attack till the last climb regardless of whether they had radios or not. The risk of cracking outweighs any potential gains of attacking early

 

[thehog]

I really don't see the problem with TTs. I'm not a Wiggins fan, but I really can't help feel like the people decrying TTs as having no place in GTs are mostly people who are fans of riders who suck at TTs.

So you'll probably get a lot of posts from people with suggestions for changing the Tour de France that will, coincidentally, play exactly to the strengths of their favorite riders.

Watch someone who really likes Mark Cavendish come in here and say that the TdF should be all flat stages with time bonuses.

TTs are fine as long as there are so MTFs for riders to get some time back.

What hope was there for anyone after stage 7 and the first TT?

 

[Caruut]

GC contenders will not attack till the last climb regardless of whether they had radios or not. The risk of cracking outweighs any potential gains of attacking early

That really depends on so many factors. Attacks from distance will still be unlikely, the real purpose is to shift the balance of power among riders.

 

[Eshnar]

very long mountain stages should never finish on a HC. The last climb should always be easier than the others, otherwise it's true the riders will wait for the final climb (though this holds true for any kind of stage, not only long ones)

 

[doperhopper]

and give Cav a chance to win overall - 10 min time bonus for a flat stage win

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

 

[taiwan]

+1.........................

 

[Marva32]

Better racing in the Grand Tours should be helped by the UCI in changing the manner in granting points. Right now, the points system creates an atmosphere of negative racing where riders are afraid to let it all hang out for fear of losing a place.