Future of grand tours

[wannab]

During this years tour, but also Giro, I annoyed me a bit about the lack of excitement. Don't get me wrong, it's still entertaining and great achievements but it missed too much excitement to make it great. One of the main reasons is the course (TDF) but also the division of the course (sprints, length, etc.)

Maybe following things could spicy things up a bit:

- Smaller teams of maybe 6 riders, this makes it harder to control a race by 1 team.

- Shorter distance for the flat stages, this in combination with the smaller teams maybe make it less predictable.

- At least 2 MTF with the climb being Hors Category (or shorter but steeper).

- I also enjoyed the shorter, very mountainous stages, these in combination with a MTF would make it very attractive to attack I think.

- Without a doubt bonifications on the top of a MTF.

- There's no need for +-100km of ITT (this years tdf)

- 1 hilly course/climb ITT or TTT instead of 2 relatively flat ITT


overall, riders make the race but make the race raceable!
No overly long mountain stages or TT's etc. Create attractive stages and add specials to bring back excitement!

Any thoughts or additions to this?

 

[Warhawk]

I really don't see the problem with TTs. I'm not a Wiggins fan, but I really can't help feel like the people decrying TTs as having no place in GTs are mostly people who are fans of riders who suck at TTs.

So you'll probably get a lot of posts from people with suggestions for changing the Tour de France that will, coincidentally, play exactly to the strengths of their favorite riders.

Watch someone who really likes Mark Cavendish come in here and say that the TdF should be all flat stages with time bonuses.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Well the last few years I noticed that making a difference in the climbs is incredibly hard for the top riders. They don't win more than seconds on eachother ('10, '20, '30 etc).

So even when there's only 1 big time trial (like TDF 11), it's deciding. When there is 2, it's already overkill.
You can only make up for that by either
a) bring back bonification seconds
or
b) add a mountain time trial

 

[Eshnar]

- Smaller teams of maybe 6 riders, this makes it harder to control a race by 1 team.

- Shorter distance for the flat stages, this in combination with the smaller teams maybe make it less predictable.

- At least 2 MTF with the climb being Hors Category (or shorter but steeper).

- I also enjoyed the shorter, very mountainous stages, these in combination with a MTF would make it very attractive to attack I think.

- Without a doubt bonifications on the top of a MTF.

- There's no need for +-100km of ITT (this years tdf)

- 1 hilly course/climb ITT or TTT instead of 2 relatively flat ITT

1. I agree.
2. agreed again
3. why not.
4. deeply disagree. Short mountain stages are a cancer for cycling. I can stand one of them in a GT but not more.
5. I don't have an opinion about bonifications.
6. 100+ kms of ITT are fine, if the mountains are enough.
7. yes for the hilly ITT, no for the TTT.

overall, riders make the race but make the race raceable!

I'm glad there's still someone who understand this.

No overly long mountain stages or TT's etc.

you just ruined everything

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Any rider who has not led the race or involved themselves in an attacking move by the end of week 3 is fed to a lion.

 

[maxmartin]

during this years tour, but also giro, i annoyed me a bit about the lack of excitement. Don't get me wrong, it's still entertaining and great achievements but it missed too much excitement to make it great. One of the main reasons is the course (tdf) but also the division of the course (sprints, length, etc.)

maybe following things could spicy things up a bit:

- smaller teams of maybe 6 riders, this makes it harder to control a race by 1 team.

- shorter distance for the flat stages, this in combination with the smaller teams maybe make it less predictable.

- at least 2 mtf with the climb being hors category (or shorter but steeper).

- i also enjoyed the shorter, very mountainous stages, these in combination with a mtf would make it very attractive to attack i think.

- without a doubt bonifications on the top of a mtf.

- there's no need for +-100km of itt (this years tdf)

- 1 hilly course/climb itt or ttt instead of 2 relatively flat itt


overall, riders make the race but make the race raceable!
No overly long mountain stages or tt's etc. Create attractive stages and add specials to bring back excitement!

Any thoughts or additions to this?

get ride of race radio

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

The problem is not the time trials but the fact that all three of them were flattish and suited the same riders. Let's have a mountain time trial and one on a descent in future, much more exciting and will play to the strengths of different riders so you won't get the same domination as this year. Imagine the time Nibali could gain on a downhill time trial.

 

[icefire]

get ride of race radio

...HRM and power meters.

 

[SetonHallPirate]

The problem is not the time trials but the fact that all three of them were flattish and suited the same riders. Let's have a mountain time trial and one on a descent in future, much more exciting and will play to the strengths of different riders so you won't get the same domination as this year. Imagine the time Nibali could gain on a downhill time trial.

I'd love to see, for instance, a TT DOWN Alpe d'Huez...I'd probably have a Director Sportif throw furniture tacks under my car while in the neutral zone though!

So I guess I'd have to stick with my Tour of the United States and a mere NINE mountaintop finishes...

 

[Magnus]

Well the last few years I noticed that making a difference in the climbs is incredibly hard for the top riders. They don't win more than seconds on eachother ('10, '20, '30 etc).

Taking the TdF in recent years i don't agree: Michael Rasmussen in '07, Sastre in '08, Contador in '09, Contador+Schleck in '10, Schleck in '11.

If there is a **** load of mtf it tends to be <30 seconds gains from attacks.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

I'd love to see, for instance, a TT DOWN Alpe d'Huez...I'd probably have a Director Sportif throw furniture tacks under my car while in the neutral zone though!

So I guess I'd have to stick with my Tour of the United States and a mere NINE mountaintop finishes...

Even better, you could have a time trial up Alpe d'Huez in the morning and one back down again in the afternoon. Probably too imaginative for the Tour organisers though sadly.

 

[SetonHallPirate]

Even better, you could have a time trial up Alpe d'Huez in the morning and one back down again in the afternoon. Probably too imaginative for the Tour organisers though sadly.

I like that idea, but the UCI doesn't. WorldTour events are not allowed to have split-stages.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Taking the TdF in recent years i don't agree: Michael Rasmussen in '07, Sastre in '08, Contador in '09, Contador+Schleck in '10, Schleck in '11.

If there is a **** load of mtf it tends to be <30 seconds gains from attacks.

I wasn't taking Contador and Schleck into the comparison Also not just the Tour, but every race with a reasonably level playing field we see the same.
Only on monster cols like Zoncolan or with monster climbers like Contador you see old school differences uphill

 

[SafeBet]

Giro used to have downhill TTs if I'm not mistaken. I remember seeing a video on RAI sometimes ago about the Poggio - Sanremo TT in the late 80s with Roche, Breukink, Argentin, Visentini and some others.


On a side note, what do you guys think of national teams in GTs?

 

[Contadoraus Schlecks]

During this years tour, but also Giro, I annoyed me a bit about the lack of excitement. Don't get me wrong, it's still entertaining and great achievements but it missed too much excitement to make it great. One of the main reasons is the course (TDF) but also the division of the course (sprints, length, etc.)

Maybe following things could spicy things up a bit:

- Smaller teams of maybe 6 riders, this makes it harder to control a race by 1 team.

- Shorter distance for the flat stages, this in combination with the smaller teams maybe make it less predictable.

- At least 2 MTF with the climb being Hors Category (or shorter but steeper).

- I also enjoyed the shorter, very mountainous stages, these in combination with a MTF would make it very attractive to attack I think.

- Without a doubt bonifications on the top of a MTF.

- There's no need for +-100km of ITT (this years tdf)

- 1 hilly course/climb ITT or TTT instead of 2 relatively flat ITT


overall, riders make the race but make the race raceable!
No overly long mountain stages or TT's etc. Create attractive stages and add specials to bring back excitement!

Any thoughts or additions to this?

Yes, add one Alberto Contador Velasco and any lack of excitement is resolved

 

[etymology]

reiterating maxmartin & icefire:

get rid of race radio and power meters.

note: i do NOT advocate getting rid of prolific cyclingnews poster "raceradio."

 

[LaChouffe]

...HRM and power meters.

Yes and Yes.

My ideal grand tour would have something for everyone. Two to three time trials, however, only one would be 50km+, the other would be around 20km and would ideally be similar in nature to the one that was used in Pais Vasco earlier this season, tight, hilly, and technical; the third being a prologue/TTT and not every year. I would prefer about 4-5 flat stages with sprints in mind, split evenly between flat straight finishes and twisty confusing finishes. I would include 3+ MTFs with 2 being on an HC or equivalent. I would also include 2 high mountain finishes with descent finishes for a total of at least 5 high mountain stages. Same with medium mountains, 3-4 stages is appropriate with at least one uphill finish. I would include (2 out of every 3 years is good enough) cobbles/strade bianche, or whatever is in spain at least once just to keep things honest. I would not limit it to the first week of racing either, it could appear at any point during the first two weeks. That leaves a handful of stages that are wildcards for the organizers to adjust on an annual basis to keep things fresh.

 

[asdfgh101]

Bonuses of 10,6,4 would enliven the early fight for the maillot jaune without distorting the GC too heavily.

The route is the most important factor.

An exciting parcours:

1. Hilly stage with short uphill finish
2. Flat
3. Hilly stage with cat 2 climb and finish after short descent
4. Flat
5. Flat with finish like Cap Frehel
6. Finish on cat 1 climb (stage like planche de belles filles)
7. Flat
8. Short mountain stage finishing on hc climb.
9. Stage with two steep cat 1 climbs (no valley in between) finishing after technical descent

REST

10. Medium mountain stage with cat 2 finish
11. Flat
12. Flat with cat 3 climb 15km from finish
13. Breakaway stage (like Voeckler's first win this year, climbs early with sapping finish)
14. Stage with two difficult climbs late on, finishing on a steep cat 2.
15. Series of difficult mountains finishing on a descent (le grand bornand stage)

REST

16. Rolling terrain to begin followed by medium mountains later in stage, finishing after a descent (breakaway)
17. Flat
18. Queen stage finishing on hc climb
19. Short mountain stage (think tour 2011)
20. Flat
21. 60km Hilly ITT

 

[Kender]

they need to find a way to stop so many crashes in the first week. it's a rough one to fix too. maybe a nice hard hilly stage 2 (hmmm Corsica) to tire out some riders

100km of TT is too much if you give the climbers nothing by the way of big MTF.

How about 1 50-60km TT that has flat and hilly sections.


i'm one of the weird ones that likes flat stages, but i agree with a previous poster that maybe they should shorten them a little (10-20km would be enough). That means the breakaways have to stay away less time and means the catch won't be as straight forward.

bring back bonus seconds. It makes GC contenders want to fight for position 1-3 more.

 

[The Hitch]

1. I agree.
2. agreed again
3. why not.
4. deeply disagree. Short mountain stages are a cancer for cycling. I can stand one of them in a GT but not more.
5. I don't have an opinion about bonifications.
6. 100+ kms of ITT are fine, if the mountains are enough.
7. yes for the hilly ITT, no for the TTT.

As always, eshnar has this covered.

 

[taiwan]

Don't mind 100km of ITT, but good to have one technical or hilly, the other flat.

3-4 (?) i.e. enough MTFs but seperated by flat stages or rest days to promote rest/encourage racing.

The first MTF quite early in the first week so that there are some gaps early.

No TTT.

Fewer technical i.e. dangerous sprint finishes.

Plenty of curveballs i.e. deceptively hilly and otherwise ambiguous stages.

A couple of flat stages with hill finishes.

Coastal stages for the echelons and splits.

Stage types evenly distributed through the race.

get ride of race radio

...HRM and power meters.

Maybe and yes.

 

[The Hitch]

Any rider who has not led the race or involved themselves in an attacking move by the end of week 3 is fed to a lion.

Vino and Jens would stop attacking and choose to take on the lion.

 

[Kender]

Bonuses of 10,6,4 would enliven the early fight for the maillot jaune without distorting the GC too heavily.

The route is the most important factor.

An exciting parcours:

1. Hilly stage with short uphill finish
2. Flat
3. Hilly stage with cat 2 climb and finish after short descent
4. Flat
5. Flat with finish like Cap Frehel
6. Finish on cat 1 climb (stage like planche de belles filles)
7. Flat
8. Short mountain stage finishing on hc climb.
9. Stage with two steep cat 1 climbs (no valley in between) finishing after technical descent

REST

10. Medium mountain stage with cat 2 finish
11. Flat
12. Flat with cat 3 climb 15km from finish
13. Breakaway stage (like Voeckler's first win this year, climbs early with sapping finish)
14. Stage with two difficult climbs late on, finishing on a steep cat 2.
15. Series of difficult mountains finishing on a descent (le grand bornand stage)

REST

16. Rolling terrain to begin followed by medium mountains later in stage, finishing after a descent (breakaway)
17. Flat
18. Queen stage finishing on hc climb
19. Short mountain stage (think tour 2011)
20. Flat
21. 60km Hilly ITT

umm so you dont want to finish on the Champs-Élysées?

there is 20 stages if a prologue is included, or 21 if there is no prologue.

 

[The Hitch]

Also what about those puncture proof tires which from what i hear are heavier and aerodynamic (or whatever the physical version of that is) therefore slower therefore less slipstream up mountains.

At the same time, less punctures which screw everything up.

 

[luckyboy]

On a side note, what do you guys think of national teams in GTs?

Yeah we should get rid of these. Oh wait..