Garmin Cervelo: A case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians?

[auscyclefan94]

Garmin Cervelo: A case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians? It is really starting to become evident that it can be detrimental to a team to have too many leaders/chiefs and not enough domestiques/indians. Lets break the team down...

Early season Classics Leaders (OHV-PR)
Farrar
Haussler
Hammond
Hushovd
Klier
Maaskant
Millar
van Summeren

Sprinters
Farrar
Hushovd
Haussler

General Classification riders
Danielson (yes BroDeal, he counts)
Hesjedal
Le Mevel
Vandevelde
Talansky
Martin

An upcoming example of having too many leaders is in MSR. You have Haussler, Hushovd and Farrar who could all win it in their own right who all recquire the finish to be a sprint. It seems redundant to have all of them in the same team for MSR. Same will apply when they come to Roubaix or Flanders

The general classification rider amount may seem a lot but isn't the main problem here.

I don't see how they will satisfy all riders ambitions. I think it is inevitable that they will lose some big riders next year. This is due to riders getting offered bigger contracts from opposing teams and general tension amongst riders who will not be able to fufill their goals and talent.

I ultimately see their season being a failure unless they win something big and ride strongly in the other classics. I am still not convinced that it will work out

What are peoples opinions of Garmin Cervelo's classics prospects?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Garmin Cervelo: A case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians? It is really starting to become evident that it can be detrimental to a team to have too many leaders/chiefs and not enough domestiques/indians. Lets break the team down...

Early season Classics Leaders (OHV-PR)
Farrar
Haussler
Hammond
Hushovd
Klier
Maaskant
Millar
van Summeren

Sprinters
Farrar
Hushovd
Haussler

General Classification riders
Danielson (yes BroDeal, he counts)
Hesjedal
Le Mevel
Vandevelde
Talansky
Martin

are no leaders in that position (anymore)

 

[Lanark]

Garmin Cervelo: A case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians? It is really starting to become evident that it can be detrimental to a team to have too many leaders/chiefs and not enough domestiques/indians. Lets break the team down...

Early season Classics Leaders (OHV-PR)
Farrar
Haussler
Hammond
Hushovd
Klier
Maaskant
Millar
van Summeren

Sprinters
Farrar
Hushovd
Haussler

I don't think it will be a big issue. Hammond, Klier, Maaskant Millar and Van Summeren aren't team leaders. Farrar is usefull for the easier classics (Gent-Wevelgem, Scheldeprijs), but hasn't shown anything to award him a leadership position in Ronde van Vlaanderen and Paris - Roubaix. They have two captains there (Haussler and Hushovd), but I think having more than 1 guy in the finale of such a hard race is only an advantage.

The sprints in the Tour could become more of a problem. Haussler, Hushovd and Farrar all have a legitimate shot at the green jersey. They could probably confince Hushovd to focus on a difficult stage win, but I don't know what they're gonna do with those other two guys.

 

[Christian]

Haussler, Hushovd and Farrar all have a legitimate shot at the green jersey.

With the new ruling (only 1 intermediate sprint per stage, more points for the stage winner), only Farrar has a shot at it, and he'll still be below Cavendish and Greipel

 

[Lanark]

With the new ruling (only 1 intermediate sprint per stage, more points for the stage winner), only Farrar has a shot at it, and he'll still be below Cavendish and Greipel

Doesn't the intermediate sprint give a lot more points?

 

[Christian]

Doesn't the intermediate sprint give a lot more points?

I don't think so, although I'm not 100% sure. Also the intermediate sprint will be before the middle of the stage, which makes it easier IMO for HTC to control who goes into the breakaway.

Here is what ingsve said on the issue:

Ya, it does feel like they are kissing some major Cavendish *** with this rule. With only 15 riders getting points at the end with a slight increase in points for first place it seems like there will be even bigger gaps in points between the places in the top 10.

Here is the article (in French):

http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-tdf_class_annexes_les_nouveaux_modes_de_calcul-13143.html

 

[woodie]

Doesn't the intermediate sprint give a lot more points?

Yes, the intermediate sprint holds half the points of the finish. So if its 35 for the finish it's 17 for the intermediate.

 

[theyoungest]

Garmin only have a luxury problem in the cobbled classics. Their sprinters have different characteristics, which make them complementary: Farrar can win the bigger bunch sprints (which Hushovd can't) and Hushovd and Haussler can make the selective group in the classics (which Farrar can't).

In the hilly classics it's really only Hesjedal and maybe Martin who can get a result. In stage races Garmin aren't that stacked either. Le Mevel, Danielson? Good luck winning any races with those guys.

 

[Astana1]

You can never have too much talent. It's all in how you manage it. However in Garmin's case, I fully expect JV to mismanage it.

Also, Talansky can't be considered a legit GC ride quite yet. If you're gonna list him as GC guy then you might as well list Stetina.

FWIW Masskant has like seven broken ribs. He's out for the cobbled classics.

Edit: Also DZ serves as a GC guy for certain races such as the TOC. After the TOC he seems to pull a dissappearing act.

 

[The Hitch]

are no leaders in that position (anymore)

You saying Danny Martin isnt a leader? well see.

 

[veganrob]

You can never have too much talent. It's all in how you manage it. However in Garmin's case, I fully expect JV to mismanage it.

Also, Talansky can't be considered a legit GC ride quite yet. If you're gonna list him as GC guy then you might as well list Stetina.

FWIW Masskant has like seven broken ribs. He's out for the cobbled classics.

Edit: Also DZ serves as a GC guy for certain races such as the TOC. After the TOC he seems to pull a dissappearing act.

Not just a matter of managing the abundant talent. It is also getting them to go along the program and sometimes that means setting aside ones own ego. SO maybe that is managing them but they gotta buy into it. Hmmm

 

[Lanark]

You saying Danny Martin isnt a leader? well see.

Certainly not for a GC (which was the category he was placed under).

 

[theyoungest]

Certainly not for a GC (which was the category he was placed under).

He won Hitch's favourite Tour, so to say Martin is not a GC leader is like a knife through his heart.

 

[Astana1]

Not just a matter of managing the abundant talent. It is also getting them to go along the program and sometimes that means setting aside ones own ego. SO maybe that is managing them but they gotta buy into it. Hmmm

Agreed. In a tactical sense, they have to put together a coherent race game plan if those three are racing together. In the strategic sense they have to get all three to understand that at some point they are going to pull the trigger and they need to commit to one of them.

Just from being a Garmin fan since their inception, based on my observations I don't have high hopes on the coherent plan bit.

 

[kurtinsc]

To me, the only real significant overlap comes from Haussler and Hushovd. Farrar is much more of a pure bunch sprinter then either of them, but seems less capable of surviving the real tough terrain then either of them.

But Husovd and Haussler seem to ideally target the same races.

In my opinion, one of the two will not be with Garmin next year... but other then that everything should work out okay.

 

[Sydney21]

I think the only problem on the team is having Hushovd Haussler and Farrar in the same team. For all the GC guys there are a lot more big races to share the leadership around in but for these classics there's only really Flanders and Roubaix. Granted that Haussler loves Flanders and Hushovd loves Roubaix but both those riders are capable of winning either of those races IMO. Haussler also overlaps with Farrar's specialty because he has shown that he certainly has the ability to match it with the best in a bunch kick.

I am also flabbergasted that people would be tipping Hushovd above Haussler for San Remo. To me Heinrich is virtually equal in ability in the hills to Thor, his early season form is the same if not better than Thor's and he is 10x more likely to win a sprint from a sizey group. Hushovd very rarely has the goods to beat fast sprinters in any sort of bunch. Look at the WC for example he beat Alby Davis, Breschel, Pozzato, Van Avermaet sort of sprinters. All guys who aren't as fast as a top sprinter in good form at San Remo would be. I can only see Hushovd winning from a tiny group but i'd back Haussler to be a far better chance of winning than him.

My Dark Horse: Galimzynov (haha he'll barely have any support so will virtually impossible but anyway)

 

[Master50]

I was thinking of the all Mapei podium at

Paris Roubaix

 

[Cobblestoned]

I was thinking of the all Mapei podium at

Paris Roubaix

Thats what I thought when their lineup was finalized last year.

Looking forward to see the Garmin-classicsarmy perform in classics and how they handle it.
These are some luxury problems.
I can already hear them on Saturday and later:

"Thor, I have some good legs today!
"Really Tyler ? Me too. Best legs I ever had! We should ask Heinrich."
"What ? You are even discussing this. My legs today are not from this planet. Hope for your support"

 

[Ferminal]

They don't have anyone who is the best at a certain discipline (granted not many teams do), so sometimes you need all the chiefs because occasionally they will win something.

For a race like M-SR you would hope they have a reasonably concrete plan, with maybe one clear leader and one wildcard. Likewise in the Tour, you would hope they pick their team based on a consistent plan which they will execute on each day - if they are going to back Farrar for the finishes then make sure you give him everything on every stage he thinks he can contest. Don't try and pick and choose days between Thor and Tyler.

For RvV and P-R, I think having Hushovd and Haussler as dual leaders is a positive. Plus someone very strong to send in the early break.

As far as their climbers/GCers go, well, they are all fairly similar in ability and defensive climbers. If you go to a race with three of them, the last one to drop on the first big test becomes your leader (you would pick a leader beforehand to guard from mechanicals etc, but if they are shown not to be the strongest you would change for future stages).

 

[Anonymous]

I was thinking of the all Mapei podium at

Paris Roubaix

Exactly. The Lefevre model is to put as many from Mapei/Domo/Quickstep in the finale as possible.

Garmin has the possibility to put 3 or 4 guys in the final for P-R, and put at least a couple threats up the road in Flanders.

Neither Boonen and Cancellara will likely have as many options and may very well have their hands full.

Or the entire Garmin team might crash together as they did last year at P-R.

 

[luckyboy]

Haussler to lead at De Ronde, Hushovd to lead at Roubaix.

Klier + Hammond are the road captains. The rest are just helpers.
Vansummeren, Maaskant, Hammond could step in and still get a good result if the leader falters.

Vanmarcke should be on that list. 2nd in Gent-Wev and finished Ronde his first time.

 

[Angliru]

I think they have an ideal balance of talent in all categories. In the classics, helpers/domestique roles are well defined with Hushovd and Haussler being the primary leaders and Farrar there as a 3rd option and to gain experience. Klier is the road captain, Van Summeran is capable of a strong ride should one of the leaders falter. Maaskant is the same as Farrar but potentially capable of delivering even more if he's able to regain his form from 2 years ago. Egos don't seem to be a potential problem.

As far as the sprints go, Hushovd has shown that he's willing to work hard in leading out Farrar, and their attributes compliment one another in that Hushovd is stronger in the hillier sprint events while Farrar is stronger and has more speed for the flat ones. Haussler is the wild card, able to stage hunt and challenge in the more hilly events. He's already shown that he can handle the distance of MSR so he would be another card for them to play. Both Haussler and Farrar (Haussler more so) has shown great promise in the cobbled classics and with the guidance of Hushovd, Summeran and Klier, they along with Maaskant develop into a fearful group. I do agree though with this abundance of talent though it's only natural that some of them will be receiving offers from other teams that they will find hard to pass up.

Their stage race talent is, IMO also complimentary in that you have riders in different stages of development and at varying points in their careers. With VDV you have a rider nearing the end of his career but one that had made great strides in his grand tour, specifically the Tour, performances hindered only by string of unfortunate injuries. Inspite of this he has shown the willingness to work for Hesjedal and Wiggins (2009) when he saw that both were stronger than himself. Hesjedal is similar to VDV in that he's hit his grand tour stride later in his career, so he knows what it is like and what it takes to ride in support of another. Danielson remains an enigma but one that is team player. The young buck is Daniel Martin and he's shown the most potential and is thus being nurtured and brought along slowly so as not to stunt his development.

All in all they appear from a fans perspective to be a team with the right mix of young and old, promise and experience in their talent, that coupled with a team first philosophy that seems to work due to the fine chemistry that exists.

 

[skidmark]

t is really starting to become evident that it can be detrimental to a team to have too many leaders/chiefs and not enough domestiques/indians.

I am wondering what you base this statement on, as it seems to be the fundamental assumption behind your post. What evidence have you seen of this, and with what teams?

 

[Jan the Man]

I think they have an excellent shot at San-Remo (Farrar/Hushovd) and Roubaix (Hushovd). Not convinced re the Ronde where I think Haussler will be the one expected to make the selection.

Strong team Quick Step went through a phase of winning numerous Monuments with Boonen and Devolder as leaders. Domo Farm Frites had several leaders/contenders and succeeded as did Mapei in their prime. Who will lead will largely depend on the race situation. In any event with road captains like Klier and Hammond its hard to see the team veering off direction.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I am wondering what you base this statement on, as it seems to be the fundamental assumption behind your post. What evidence have you seen of this, and with what teams?

The Greipel and Cavendish combo was pretty abrasive, but I think Garmin's trio are much more complementary than those two, both in riding style and personality. Watching Thor work for Farrar in T-A showed a cohesion that could only be an advantage.

I don't know if this is what AFC was getting at, but these Garmin riders seem less dependent on long trains of support compared to other teams, so the loss of a supportive roster spot isn't as big of a hit.

Its also worth noting the defensive recruiting of Garmin; taking a bunch of chiefs for one tribe means those chiefs aren't leading rival tribes...