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Garmin offering Contador what? 3 million Euro?

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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-offer-contador-up-to-eur8-million-per-year

If Contador puts an ambit claim for 4 mill, Garmin must be offering 3 one would think

The massive salary boost would far exceed the four million Euro that Contador is believed to have asked for as part of the renegotiation. The asked-for sum is based upon offers made by rival teams Garmin-Slipstream, Caisse d'Epargne and Quick Step. However, Astana has made the new offer on the basis that Contador will extend his tenure with the team for a further four years, through 2013.

time to call Vaughters and his operation a sham unfortunately. How can they go into this Dutch auction not expecting to win the Tour, and with Contador doped up. Terrible hypocrisy, fraudulent claims made in all their communications messaging. We been duped I tell ya.
 
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the fact is, there is no difference between Mauro Gianetti's Saunier outfits and Garmin. Sort of fitting Millar bags his old team, cos his new team is no different.

Still look left, see no evil, hear no evil, discover the best new undetectable products.

The only difference is the vigilance and resources. They have a closer watch on the physiological parametes, and are better funded so they will not fall foul of the testers, and the politcal masters at the UCI. Why is Vaughters climbing ranks in the Protour team owners association. Building constituencies, influence, and a serfdom. He sees from Armstrong's example, you need to do it on two fronts. Political and tarmac.

When will Steffan get the boot and the Spanish docs brought in for insulin-all-round (yay!) to the team during the Tour. Contador would very least have his soigneur and doc to attend to him, and double those locks on the inside of the hotel door.

I feel for some of the graduates from TIAA Cref Slipstream. Some of those guys would have the physiology to compete and win if all riders were clean in the Protour, but they lose their spot to the expediency from management who have now ditched the high ideals they professed to (aspired to? but what are ideals if one ditches them as fast as one says Faust).

Folks, gotta stop drinking the coolaid. Same ol' same ol', nothing to see here, move along.

If JV wants to come back on here, and tell us he has been to speak to Werner Franke on Contador, and what evidence Franke had on Contador with Operation Puerto, we would be grateful.
 
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

IN-DEPTH: CYCLE OF DENIAL
Implicated on the Internet
An instant messenger chat between two prominent cyclists challenges Floyd Landis's assertion that he's unfamiliar with doping techniques
Last Updated Thurs., Jan. 3, 2006
An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005.

Cyclevaughters: frankie - hey - thanks for talking the other day

FDREU: no problem, where are you

Cyclevaughters: back in CO

FDREU: nice, I just got home, isnt' it like 5AM

Cyclevaughters: sometimes i think i'm going to go nuts

Cyclevaughters: yeah

Cyclevaughters: it's 5am

FDREU: I agree, I came home and the air conditioning is broken

Cyclevaughters: ouch

FDREU: did your kid grow twice it's size in the two weeks you were gone

Cyclevaughters: yeah, his feet look bigger for some eason

FDREU: funny

Cyclevaughters: anyhow, i never can quite figure out why i don't just play along with the lance crowd - i mean **** it would make my life easier, eh? it's not like i never played with hotsauce, eh?

FDREU: I know, but in the end i don't think it comes back to bite you

FDREU: I play along, my wife does not, and Lance hates us both

FDREU: it's a no win situation, you know how he is. Once you leave the team or do soemthing wrong you forever banned

Cyclevaughters: i suppose - you know he tried to hire me back in 2001... he was nice to me... i just couldn't deal with that whole world

FDREU: I did not know that

FDREU: look at why everyone leaves, it's way to controlling

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now(not) all the teams got 25 injections every day

Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO

FDREU: you mean all the riders

Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole

FDREU: it's crazy

Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of $hit when he'd say everyone was doing it <Garmin?>

FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the Tour and lance but it's just playing the game

Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39%

FDREU: when in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - whtever

FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not

FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff

Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone

FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group

Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos

FDREU: explain that, classics to climber

FDREU: when did you talk with floyd

Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George

Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal

Cyclevaughters: or at least i did

FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

FDREU: they have it mastered. good point

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine<see Giro 2008>

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed <pre TDF for teams which wanna go under the radar Frankie>

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it <$$$ thanks for renewing Garmin>

FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so ****ed at them this entire tour

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys

Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the **** when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird

FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason

FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest

Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"

FDREU: they won't stop

FDREU: I agree

ok, wanna go on record. I reckon most of his squad are bread and water. I reckon the A team ain't. The A team payz the billz, the bread and water guys can mollify their PR BS.
 
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PS. If we call Armstrong out, we would be hypocritical not to call everyone out for the same. I reckon JV's mob should be able to have the same benefits as every other team, and compete on a more even playing field.

I dont want em to dope, dont like it, but concede the expediency.

But I reckon what is worse, is telling us you guyz are clean, when, lets be frank about this, your A team was not clean.

I wont be so hard, if you dont BS me. Simple.
 
Reading this again some things came to mind.

First, JV is a member and has posted on this forum. At the tine this was released, he said it all came from 2nd or 3rd hand information. But this conversation rings so true, I'd love for him to come on here and explain statements like,

"It's not like I never played with hotsauce, eh?"

"Once I went to Credit Agricole and saw that not) all the teams got 25 injections every day...hell, CA was ZERO"

"I could explain the whole way Lance dupes everyone"

"...from how Floyd described it, i know exactly the methods..."

Another interesting thought came into mind. This summer people were surprised that Lance and Frankie were cordial, almost chums, during interviews in the Tour. Betsy stated elsewhere that of course Lance likes Frankie, as Frankie is one of the only people who hasn't leached off Lance. What a strange world Lance must live in. Where you're constantly having to protect everything, while everyone around you strokes your ego. It's like that Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life".
 
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Blackcat, I'm confused - are you saying that JV's team IS clean, but it would be hypocritical for them to sign AC who you think is doped up??
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Reading this again some things came to mind.

First, JV is a member and has posted on this forum. At the tine this was released, he said it all came from 2nd or 3rd hand information. But this conversation rings so true, I'd love for him to come on here and explain statements like,

"It's not like I never played with hotsauce, eh?"

"Once I went to Credit Agricole and saw that not) all the teams got 25 injections every day...hell, CA was ZERO"

"I could explain the whole way Lance dupes everyone"

"...from how Floyd described it, i know exactly the methods..."

Another interesting thought came into mind. This summer people were surprised that Lance and Frankie were cordial, almost chums, during interviews in the Tour. Betsy stated elsewhere that of course Lance likes Frankie, as Frankie is one of the only people who hasn't leached off Lance. What a strange world Lance must live in. Where you're constantly having to protect everything, while everyone around you strokes your ego. It's like that Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life".
but Credit Agricole had moved to the hear no evil see no evil.

Moreau was the dominant rider in the first 12 days in the 2007 Tour. And they had two Kazakhs which were to go positive. Kashechkin, and Fofonov.

So Moreau may have gone clean in the immediate years post Festina, but when his hot sauce got luke warm, he took it out of the oven and took his feed.
 
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Mountain Goat said:
Blackcat, I'm confused - are you saying that JV's team IS clean, but it would be hypocritical for them to sign AC who you think is doped up??
nah, JV's "A Team" is not clean. I believed in him for 18 months, then revised my opinion on his team (specifically the A team).

Yes, this is VERY scientific <sarcasm>. All I have to put my finger on it is "know it when I see it". I know Cyclismag had Vande Velde right where Lemond and Hinault where on normalised watts.

But by this year, I could not believe in them, and reassessed the first belief in them. I was a gullible idiot. You may say now I am a bigoted idiot. I will wear that. But I am putting my opinion out there.

The fact that JV wants Contador proves to me his expediency, and the fact he was not worried about Wiggins hemoglobin levels, even tho they did things like Armstrong's parameters.

If you want to run a clean team, you don't enter the Contador Dutch auction lottery do you? Any other team with results like Garmin would be called out. And the continent messageboards raised their collective eyes.

Also think Boulder Report's Joe Lindsey and Paul Kimmage have better things to do rather than be co-opted and used in the PR shtick. Walsh does not believe in atleast one of their riders, which he communicated to me in an email. I reckon Walsh had a duty to call him out too. Because he did to Armstrong, so why should he protect someone from home?
 
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while it is certainly possible there are riders on Garmin, or any other team, that are not clean I think it is a stretch to say that JV is a willing enabler of a doping program on his team.

Our sport has people like Lefevre, Bruyneel, Gianetti etc. who lie for a living, JV is not one of those guys. For obvious reasons it is impossible for JV to tell everything to the media but if you meet him some time he is generally more then willing to give additional background on the reality.

Perhaps I am being played but I believe the sport needs more guys like JV, not less
 
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Race Radio said:
while it is certainly possible there are riders on Garmin, or any other team, that are not clean I think it is a stretch to say that JV is a willing enabler of a doping program on his team.

Our sport has people like Lefevre, Bruyneel, Gianetti etc. who lie for a living, JV is not one of those guys. For obvious reasons it is impossible for JV to tell everything to the media but if you meet him some time he is generally more then willing to give additional background on the reality.

Perhaps I am being played but I believe the sport needs more guys like JV, not less

Race, you are probably the best contributor to English language fora. I respect your posts above all others.

So your opinion means something and informs my opinion. But JV has to be content with NOT winning the Tour, and just getting mediocre results and making up the numbers. If he argues this means his team goes out of business, because he is crowded out in the US market with High Road and Tailwind making up his market.

My answer, JV has to run a better business model and innovate.

I can't believe in his A team, and I think the "look no evil, hear no evil" is not better than Saunier, and then when you add their PR shtick on top, it becomes regrettable.

But thanks for being a counter weight to my opinion, cos I feel a little guilty with the bash Garmin threads. I think I have made my point anyhow.
 
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I just want to emphasise, Race Radio is the most well informed and best poster on fora, and his opinion should be held above mine.
 
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blackcat said:
but Credit Agricole had moved to the hear no evil see no evil.

Moreau was the dominant rider in the first 12 days in the 2007 Tour. And they had two Kazakhs which were to go positive. Kashechkin, and Fofonov.

So Moreau may have gone clean in the immediate years post Festina, but when his hot sauce got luke warm, he took it out of the oven and took his feed.

2007 Moreau was riding for Ag2r, not CA. I'm not arguing your larger point (CA = see no evil), just sayin'. In fact, just sayin Ag2r might have been the same way. I thought as much when they signed Mancebo, and the Russian guy from CE whose name I can't remember right now...
 
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filipo said:
2007 Moreau was riding for Ag2r, not CA. I'm not arguing your larger point (CA = see no evil), just sayin'. In fact, just sayin Ag2r might have been the same way. I thought as much when they signed Mancebo, and the Russian guy from CE whose name I can't remember right now...
all the French teams can be as expedient as they have to be, and arbitrage their wage bill with Eastern Europeans, or Columbians, (ok, Mancebo was on big bucks). But I dont think the French are any better. Just less aggressive.
 
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blackcat said:
all the French teams can be as expedient as they have to be, and arbitrage their wage bill with Eastern Europeans, or Columbians, (ok, Mancebo was on big bucks). But I dont think the French are any better. Just less aggressive.
I am like Hinault in his belief.
 
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blackcat said:
Race, you are probably the best contributor to English language fora. I respect your posts above all others.

So your opinion means something and informs my opinion. But JV has to be content with NOT winning the Tour, and just getting mediocre results and making up the numbers. If he argues this means his team goes out of business, because he is crowded out in the US market with High Road and Tailwind making up his market.

My answer, JV has to run a better business model and innovate.

I can't believe in his A team, and I think the "look no evil, hear no evil" is not better than Saunier, and then when you add their PR shtick on top, it becomes regrettable.

But thanks for being a counter weight to my opinion, cos I feel a little guilty with the bash Garmin threads. I think I have made my point anyhow.

Thank you for the compliments. There are a few different issues here

Contador- JV has a team and a sponsor that is based around the Tour. No matter what JV has to appear to be in the game. It only helps to have Garmin appear to be in the bidding for AC. It shows that they are players, it ****es off Armstrong, it enhances their visibility. It only helps their position when AC's Bio numbers are supposedly spotless. While I certainly do not believe AC to be clean I do believe he is a once in a generation rider. If the playing field of the Tour continues to get more equal it is riders like AC you will want to have on your team.

Garmin is much better then Saunier. Their internal testing, the riders they hire, their culture. I doubt that the JV is introducing any of his young riders to the local Girona doctors.

Yes, there is a bunch of fluff there.....but that is their job. Prior to this season the amount of coverage they get with so few results was amazing....but this is their job, to get exposure for their sponsors. If there is some type of doping program you would expect their riders to be dropping the field like Ricco and Prentice Stephen would be telling everyone who would listen.
 
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Race Radio said:
Thank you for the compliments. There are a few different issues here

Contador- JV has a team and a sponsor that is based around the Tour. No matter what JV has to appear to be in the game. It only helps to have Garmin appear to be in the bidding for AC. It shows that they are players, it ****es off Armstrong, it enhances their visibility. It only helps their position when AC's Bio numbers are supposedly spotless. While I certainly do not believe AC to be clean I do believe he is a once in a generation rider. If the playing field of the Tour continues to get more equal it is riders like AC you will want to have on your team.

Garmin is much better then Saunier. Their internal testing, the riders they hire, their culture. I doubt that the JV is introducing any of his young riders to the local Girona doctors.

Yes, there is a bunch of fluff there.....but that is their job. Prior to this season the amount of coverage they get with so few results was amazing....but this is their job, to get exposure for their sponsors. If there is some type of doping program you would expect their riders to be dropping the field like Ricco and Prentice Stephen would be telling everyone who would listen.
that is the thing. I the Plateau de Belle stage, the one that Ricco won, beating Kirchen in the finish, the one where Scumacher fell, well Vande Velde went off the front with Cobo about 4 kms out. He held off the peloton for a while, then he said he had the legs to go with Cobo, Peipoli, and Schleck on the first proper mtn stage. He said he was too conservative and should have jumped with Kohl who tried to bridge. That is four doperz right there.

Then the final stage where Kohl did alot of time in the wind, where Andy Schleck went after Sastre, Vande Velde also said he misread the finish, and had better legs and his tactics let him down.

So Vande Velde is saying he had the performance of all these Saunier riders, plus Kohl, and Frank Schleck. That is enlightening.

I reckon JV knows what is capable to do clean. They do run a tighter ship at Garmin and try and eek out more bang via Peppercorn and assiduously courting their homegrown meedja with their narrative. But even tho Armstrong may have confected a successful myth, branding fundamentally has to be based on genuine characteristics. I see a dissonance in their messaging, and their behaviour.
 
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Mountain Goat said:
Blackcat, I'm confused - are you saying that JV's team IS clean, but it would be hypocritical for them to sign AC who you think is doped up??
Funny but I think the cat is saying that 1 - JV's A-team is not clean. 2. Them in hot pursuit of the little pistol is corroboration.
 
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Race Radio said:
Thank you for the compliments. There are a few different issues here

Contador- JV has a team and a sponsor that is based around the Tour. No matter what JV has to appear to be in the game. It only helps to have Garmin appear to be in the bidding for AC. It shows that they are players, it ****es off Armstrong, it enhances their visibility. It only helps their position when AC's Bio numbers are supposedly spotless. While I certainly do not believe AC to be clean I do believe he is a once in a generation rider. If the playing field of the Tour continues to get more equal it is riders like AC you will want to have on your team.

Garmin is much better then Saunier. Their internal testing, the riders they hire, their culture. I doubt that the JV is introducing any of his young riders to the local Girona doctors.

Yes, there is a bunch of fluff there.....but that is their job. Prior to this season the amount of coverage they get with so few results was amazing....but this is their job, to get exposure for their sponsors. If there is some type of doping program you would expect their riders to be dropping the field like Ricco and Prentice Stephen would be telling everyone who would listen.
Race, I dont know what the proportion of talent to doping is Contador.

The last two World Champs in the u23 tt were second year espoirs. Contador, the guy who beat Cancellara, or nearly beat him in the final tt, cant remember who won this year in that Tour chrono, look at him here. Next to Creed. Who is a very solid rider. But no once in a generation rider.

And yes, how can you take one ride, I appreciate the vagaries of having good legs on the day.

1 Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu) 38.40.80 (51.5 km/h)
2 Alexandr Bespalov (Rus) 0.41.69
3 Sergio Paulinho (Por) 1.28.96
4 Jonas Olsson (Swe) 1.31.20
5 Marcus Fothen (Ger) 1.32.95
6 Alexandr Arekeev (Rus) 1.39.80
7 Sébastien Rosseler (Bel) 1.40.67
8 Niels Scheuneman (Ned) 1.49.09
9 Gregor Gazvoda (Slo) 1.50.07
10 Christophe Kern (Fra) 1.50.75
11 Francisco Gutierrez (Spa) 1.53.98
12 Volodymyr Starchyk (Ukr) 2.03.18
13 Mark Scanlon (Irl) 2.03.96
14 Benoït Vaugrenard (Fra) 2.05.07
15 Piotr Mazur (Pol) 2.07.61
16 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) 2.12.01
17 Michael Creed (USA) 2.12.49

18 Jure Zrimsek (Slo) 2.14.10
19 Ioannis Tamouridis (Gre) 2.14.95
20 Kevin De Weert (Bel) 2.15.96
 
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blackcat said:
that is the thing. I the Plateau de Belle stage, the one that Ricco won, beating Kirchen in the finish, the one where Scumacher fell, well Vande Velde went off the front with Cobo about 4 kms out. He held off the peloton for a while, then he said he had the legs to go with Cobo, Peipoli, and Schleck on the first proper mtn stage. He said he was too conservative and should have jumped with Kohl who tried to bridge. That is four doperz right there.

Then the final stage where Kohl did alot of time in the wind, where Andy Schleck went after Sastre, Vande Velde also said he misread the finish, and had better legs and his tactics let him down.

So Vande Velde is saying he had the performance of all these Saunier riders, plus Kohl, and Frank Schleck. That is enlightening.

I reckon JV knows what is capable to do clean. They do run a tighter ship at Garmin and try and eek out more bang via Peppercorn and assiduously courting their homegrown meedja with their narrative. But even tho Armstrong may have confected a successful myth, branding fundamentally has to be based on genuine characteristics. I see a dissonance in their messaging, and their behaviour.

It appears that VDV is saying that he could have gone harder....but didn't. I have been guilty of the same claim. Whenever I get dropped I always say I could have gone harder. I could have made it over that next Col. If I just had held that wheel. It is a common claim in the sport. It is very important to always think that you can stay with the competition, even when you can't.

While it is certainly possible VDV is on the sauce, or used it in his days at USPS or CSC, but I have yet to see something that I would say is not possible.
 
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yeah, I know, most pro athletes with ego's like to inflate on the downside to make themselves look better. Is a glaring weakness in one's thesis.
 
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blackcat said:
Race, I dont know what the proportion of talent to doping is Contador.

The last two World Champs in the u23 tt were second year espoirs. Contador, the guy who beat Cancellara, or nearly beat him in the final tt, cant remember who won this year in that Tour chrono, look at him here. Next to Creed. Who is a very solid rider. But no once in a generation rider.

And yes, how can you take one ride, I appreciate the vagaries of having good legs on the day.

1 Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu) 38.40.80 (51.5 km/h)
2 Alexandr Bespalov (Rus) 0.41.69
3 Sergio Paulinho (Por) 1.28.96
4 Jonas Olsson (Swe) 1.31.20
5 Marcus Fothen (Ger) 1.32.95
6 Alexandr Arekeev (Rus) 1.39.80
7 Sébastien Rosseler (Bel) 1.40.67
8 Niels Scheuneman (Ned) 1.49.09
9 Gregor Gazvoda (Slo) 1.50.07
10 Christophe Kern (Fra) 1.50.75
11 Francisco Gutierrez (Spa) 1.53.98
12 Volodymyr Starchyk (Ukr) 2.03.18
13 Mark Scanlon (Irl) 2.03.96
14 Benoït Vaugrenard (Fra) 2.05.07
15 Piotr Mazur (Pol) 2.07.61
16 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) 2.12.01
17 Michael Creed (USA) 2.12.49

18 Jure Zrimsek (Slo) 2.14.10
19 Ioannis Tamouridis (Gre) 2.14.95
20 Kevin De Weert (Bel) 2.15.96

Unfortunately because of the time of year the Worlds is not always the best measure of a riders potential. Often a young rider will be tossed into the race, regardless of form, just for experience.

A better measure would be to look at his overall U-23 career. At 18 he won the Spanish U-23 TT. Yes, the Spanish do not have many good TT riders but the guy was 18 years old and he was going against top amateurs and Pros. In addition to his ability to TT he by far the best climber in the country that was not a Pro. Certainly these results could be, in fact most likely are, dirty. He was riding for Saiz even as an amateur. When AC turned Pro he was by far the most in demand rider that year. Saiz won him only after a bidding war with Brunyeel.

Yes, he is likely a doper. He is also likely a freak.
 
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guy has got some acromegaly features like Ronnie Coleman.

Alberto-Contador-and-Lance-Armstrong-want-to-kill-each-other.jpg