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Garmin offering Contador what? 3 million Euro?

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May 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
but Credit Agricole had moved to the hear no evil see no evil.

Moreau was the dominant rider in the first 12 days in the 2007 Tour. And they had two Kazakhs which were to go positive. Kashechkin, and Fofonov.

So Moreau may have gone clean in the immediate years post Festina, but when his hot sauce got luke warm, he took it out of the oven and took his feed.

How was Moreau known to be clean by Vaughters in 2000-01 like his PM says? Moreau was still with Festina at that time.

Recall he won the prologue in 2001.
 
blackcat said:
guy has got some acromegaly features like Ronnie Coleman.

Alberto-Contador-and-Lance-Armstrong-want-to-kill-each-other.jpg

Do you mean the one on the left or the one on the right, or both?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Lance has the jaw going, but not the simian browline I meant re:acromegaly. Albeit both indicative of hgh abuse. He (pistolero) also has a freaky crowded mouth.

And... as Vaughters himself says, <words to effect> "I would not touch that stuff because your head grows". So if anyone wants to throw criticisms at me, Vaughters saw the same symptoms in the peloton.
 
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ChrisE said:
How was Moreau known to be clean by Vaughters in 2000-01 like his PM says? Moreau was still with Festina at that time.

Recall he won the prologue in 2001.

Yeah Moreau was probably doing the hotsauce but since JV is like the geek nobody wanted to be friends it would be hard for JV to be in the inner circle of other teammates.

I wonder if Garmin / JV has any scale models of the Joux plan with little lab rats riding bicycles up it?
 
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blackcat said:
Lance has the jaw going, but not the simian browline I meant re:acromegaly. Albeit both indicative of hgh abuse. He (pistolero) also has a freaky crowded mouth.

And... as Vaughters himself says, <words to effect> "I would not touch that stuff because your head grows". So if anyone wants to throw criticisms at me, Vaughters saw the same symptoms in the peloton.

They both have Extra Terestrial looks going. I have to say that Pistolero looks more Biavian to me. While the Tornado takes on the classic Targzissians look.

They both could take on the staring role in E.T. phones home!
 
Interesting thread, I would have to say I definitely believed in Garmin in 08 because of the time Paul Kimmage spent with them. It wasnt that he didnt see anything, it was more the impression he got from talking to them. I would really love to hear what Kimmage now thinks of their performances the last year in light of how well they done.

I dont think there is any doubt JV doped whilst at US Postal, if anybody read his interview with Kimmage last July 08, there is very little doubt about that. I dont think JV has missed the fact that many of his riders might have doped in the past, you just aint gonna out your own team for the benefit of others even if that would be the best thing to do, the logic of the cycling world is too skewed to be so honest.

On Credit Agricole, yes Fofonov was caught but Kascheckin was long gone form CA when busted. He only really developed as a top rider when he moved to Astana. Dont recall him doing much at CA. Fofonov was the only rider ever caught from CA so it seems the whole team is guitly by association. It wasnt even for EPO/CERA or anything major, it was some minor ancient drug even though it cannot be excused.

Overall, I tend to go with Race Radio over Blackcat even if I dont like the connection with Contador. Blackcat goes on about the Garmin A-team. Who are the Garmin A-Team? Vandevelde, Wiggins, Farrar who else?

Since they moved to Garmin, neither Zabriskie or Millar have produced any outstanding results. Martin has performed inconsistenly, was nowhere at the Vuelta, Hysdejal won a stage at the Vuelta but thats it, nothing else outstanding. Farrar has really improved this season but I would still put him behind Cav & Greipel and maybe Petacchi in the sprinting league, I think a few other guys have declined which has pushed Farrar up the rankings.

They had a good late season, mainly down to Farrar. Good results at Vuelta but is by far the weakest GT. Only Wiggins and Vandevelde have produced outstanding results. On Vandevelde competing with the Saunier Duval guys and Kohl in 08, this goes back to the old nugget, natural talent v doping. Maybe Vandevelde is miles better than them naturally but with the CERA in, these guys are better than him. Unless we know the starting values, its hard to call, not just on Vandevelde but all cyclists.

I dont believe in anyone in cycling 100% but if people are really doping at Garmin and JV knows the score, they are by far the worst of the worst, even worse than his holiness. Yes, I said it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Interesting thread, I would have to say I definitely believed in Garmin in 08 because of the time Paul Kimmage spent with them. It wasnt that he didnt see anything, it was more the impression he got from talking to them. I would really love to hear what Kimmage now thinks of their performances the last year in light of how well they done.

I dont think there is any doubt JV doped whilst at US Postal, if anybody read his interview with Kimmage last July 08, there is very little doubt about that. I dont think JV has missed the fact that many of his riders might have doped in the past, you just aint gonna out your own team for the benefit of others even if that would be the best thing to do, the logic of the cycling world is too skewed to be so honest.

On Credit Agricole, yes Fofonov was caught but Kascheckin was long gone form CA when busted. He only really developed as a top rider when he moved to Astana. Dont recall him doing much at CA. Fofonov was the only rider ever caught from CA so it seems the whole team is guitly by association. It wasnt even for EPO/CERA or anything major, it was some minor ancient drug even though it cannot be excused.

Overall, I tend to go with Race Radio over Blackcat even if I dont like the connection with Contador. Blackcat goes on about the Garmin A-team. Who are the Garmin A-Team? Vandevelde, Wiggins, Farrar who else?

Since they moved to Garmin, neither Zabriskie or Millar have produced any outstanding results. Martin has performed inconsistenly, was nowhere at the Vuelta, Hysdejal won a stage at the Vuelta but thats it, nothing else outstanding. Farrar has really improved this season but I would still put him behind Cav & Greipel and maybe Petacchi in the sprinting league, I think a few other guys have declined which has pushed Farrar up the rankings.

They had a good late season, mainly down to Farrar. Good results at Vuelta but is by far the weakest GT. Only Wiggins and Vandevelde have produced outstanding results. On Vandevelde competing with the Saunier Duval guys and Kohl in 08, this goes back to the old nugget, natural talent v doping. Maybe Vandevelde is miles better than them naturally but with the CERA in, these guys are better than him. Unless we know the starting values, its hard to call, not just on Vandevelde but all cyclists.

I dont believe in anyone in cycling 100% but if people are really doping at Garmin and JV knows the score, they are by far the worst of the worst, even worse than his holiness. Yes, I said it.

There were some other riders who had some surprising results, anomalous performances if you will.

Kash was only 25 in 2005 at CA, finished second in the white jersey and 19th overall. Compare that to Frank Schleck when he debuted in a GT at the Giro. Kash's result was superior in a much deeper Tour. Your memory is not great, because when Liggett talks of the heads of state when selection is made in the mtns, on atleast one occasion Kash was their in green livery.

Maybe Vande Velde is miles better. But that would have made him the first guy over the line on bread and water probably. And I dont see him kicking up a fuss. And I then dont see anyone complaining about riding for Wiggins.

Vande Velde rode for minimum the first year when he needed a gig on CSC. And then JV opens a chequebook with 500k, they are greenbacks, not Kiwi or Aussie monopoly money, tho the Fed is trying to inflate the currency. Implicit in giving someone a big contract is getting value for money and results. JV said Legeay offered him the outclause, he would pay him if he won the Tour if he finished 10th on GC. Well Vande Velde was 4th on GC. Did he open the cheque book for the equivalent to the Tour winner? Doubt it, that would have put CVdV on 2million US. If not, why not? Did he think the winners were clean.

So he is happy to parrot the line from Legeay, insinuating the top 9 were clean, by deduction, this circa 2000 when he was at CA. But now he is DS and manager, you can win the Tour clean? Paradox there methinks.

If the sport is to get clean, you need guys like Vaughters, but like Obama, lots of rhetoric, no real action. Need action, not rhetoric. Dont bid for pistolero.

I disgree with Race, and think it is even more important that Garmin are held to account, cos they profess to be clean from man 1 thru to their 25th guy on the C squad. Now if thet are not riding clean, and then they are holding up themselves to the standard of what is capable, riding on bread and water, how would you feel if you are a clean rider in the autobus. I would be mighty ****ed off. I know there were clean riders on Saunier. But some DS' have said they would not touch any rider thru their with a barge pole. But Slipstream have this branding, founded on PR strategy and Peppercorn. Come on. I think the clean guys on teams like Saunier, and there are clean guys even on those teams, deserve better than rhetoric from the professed clean teams.

Or clean it up as well as you can, but keep it quiet, and tell your sponsor the restrictions. They run a professional shop in their operations, so it should not be hard to impress upon a sponsor about the real politik and expediency of the peloton, and what is achievable. But saying you can win the Tour clean, lets hook up everyone in cycling to a polygraph and get their answer on that.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Interesting thread, I would have to say I definitely believed in Garmin in 08 because of the time Paul Kimmage spent with them. It wasnt that he didnt see anything, it was more the impression he got from talking to them. I would really love to hear what Kimmage now thinks of their performances the last year in light of how well they done.

I dont think there is any doubt JV doped whilst at US Postal, if anybody read his interview with Kimmage last July 08, there is very little doubt about that. I dont think JV has missed the fact that many of his riders might have doped in the past, you just aint gonna out your own team for the benefit of others even if that would be the best thing to do, the logic of the cycling world is too skewed to be so honest.

On Credit Agricole, yes Fofonov was caught but Kascheckin was long gone form CA when busted. He only really developed as a top rider when he moved to Astana. Dont recall him doing much at CA. Fofonov was the only rider ever caught from CA so it seems the whole team is guitly by association. It wasnt even for EPO/CERA or anything major, it was some minor ancient drug even though it cannot be excused.

Overall, I tend to go with Race Radio over Blackcat even if I dont like the connection with Contador. Blackcat goes on about the Garmin A-team. Who are the Garmin A-Team? Vandevelde, Wiggins, Farrar who else?

Since they moved to Garmin, neither Zabriskie or Millar have produced any outstanding results. Martin has performed inconsistenly, was nowhere at the Vuelta, Hysdejal won a stage at the Vuelta but thats it, nothing else outstanding. Farrar has really improved this season but I would still put him behind Cav & Greipel and maybe Petacchi in the sprinting league, I think a few other guys have declined which has pushed Farrar up the rankings.

They had a good late season, mainly down to Farrar. Good results at Vuelta but is by far the weakest GT. Only Wiggins and Vandevelde have produced outstanding results. On Vandevelde competing with the Saunier Duval guys and Kohl in 08, this goes back to the old nugget, natural talent v doping. Maybe Vandevelde is miles better than them naturally but with the CERA in, these guys are better than him. Unless we know the starting values, its hard to call, not just on Vandevelde but all cyclists.

I dont believe in anyone in cycling 100% but if people are really doping at Garmin and JV knows the score, they are by far the worst of the worst, even worse than his holiness. Yes, I said it.


I would think if you look at the results you will see that Z never missed a beat since tranfering from CSC. Millar was pulling in the mountains with Wiggins for the TDF.

Also Tommy D. has had some strange or should I say interesting moments in 2009.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Zabriskie is riding well. But not AS well. But he was never a world beater on CSC. He did have a good Dauphine, think he was 4th or 5th, may have even made the podium.

I think he got spooked by his best mate Fraud Landis. And now DZ is doing Millar's euphemistic "recovery therapy".

Cleaner, definitely. But their A team... I cant believe. I did believe in everyone last year, but had to revise my gullibility I am afraid to say.
 

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blackcat said:
I reckon JV knows what is capable to do clean. They do run a tighter ship at Garmin and try and eek out more bang via Peppercorn and assiduously courting their homegrown meedja with their narrative. But even tho Armstrong may have confected a successful myth, branding fundamentally has to be based on genuine characteristics. I see a dissonance in their messaging, and their behaviour.

I think the highlighted above is an interesting point - from the IM's of JV, interview in the Times last year and admitting to being above 50% hct in 99 leave me in no doubt about JVs past.

However I think he was relatively clean at Credit Agricole - and realized that a rider could be relatively competitive in a few targeted events.
I believe he started the team with that philosophy in mind - and realizes he cannot change the system overnight or indeed 'rock the boat' too much in what he does and says.

BlackCat - You have had me questioning Garmin since your posts earlier in the year and it has forced me to question some of the PR we receive through the media and cycling websites.
Like you, my position has shifted over the last year - from certainty that Garmin were 100% clean to a little more skeptical.
 
blackcat said:
Zabriskie is riding well. But not AS well. But he was never a world beater on CSC. He did have a good Dauphine, think he was 4th or 5th, may have even made the podium.

I think he got spooked by his best mate Fraud Landis. And now DZ is doing Millar's euphemistic "recovery therapy".

Cleaner, definitely. But their A team... I cant believe. I did believe in everyone last year, but had to revise my gullibility I am afraid to say.

Again, who are Garmins A-team? Clearly not DZ or Millar so who does that leave. Vandevelde, Wiggins, Farrar 3 ****ing riders.
 
pmcg76 said:
Interesting thread, I would have to say I definitely believed in Garmin in 08 because of the time Paul Kimmage spent with them. It wasnt that he didnt see anything, it was more the impression he got from talking to them. I would really love to hear what Kimmage now thinks of their performances the last year in light of how well they done.

Cant find the quote but im sure that Paul Kimmage also said that Bernhard Kohl tiredness at the end of the Alpe d'Huez stage was an example of a cleaner tour? Not the same as being in the same caravan, etc, but still casts a doubt on his judgement if he did say that

EDIT: Here it is

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4407072.ece

"It hurt even more on Wednesday during the shoot-out at Alpe d’Huez when we witnessed the scenes that had once made the race so special. Rewind the tape and the truth is in the pain; the mouths gaping for breath; the eyes rolling with tiredness; the exhausted portrait of the Austrian Bernard Kohl - second overall and King of the Mountains - as he collapsed after crossing the line. The moment of the race.

But not everyone was pleased. No, back in the press room, some of the muppets who had glorified the Robo-cop years were bemoaning the lack of “spectacle”. They had spent so much time with their heads up the arses of the cheats, they had forgotten:this is how it looks when it’s clean. "
 
Jun 27, 2009
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Frosty said:
Cant find the quote but im sure that Paul Kimmage also said that Bernhard Kohl tiredness at the end of the Alpe d'Huez stage was an example of a cleaner tour? Not the same as being in the same caravan, etc, but still casts a doubt on his judgement if he did say that

EDIT: Here it is

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4407072.ece

"It hurt even more on Wednesday during the shoot-out at Alpe d’Huez when we witnessed the scenes that had once made the race so special. Rewind the tape and the truth is in the pain; the mouths gaping for breath; the eyes rolling with tiredness; the exhausted portrait of the Austrian Bernard Kohl - second overall and King of the Mountains - as he collapsed after crossing the line. The moment of the race.

But not everyone was pleased. No, back in the press room, some of the muppets who had glorified the Robo-cop years were bemoaning the lack of “spectacle”. They had spent so much time with their heads up the arses of the cheats, they had forgotten:this is how it looks when it’s clean. "

Nice link. I'd like to see Kimmage discuss that passage in hindsight. Part of the reason Slipstream had that extra credibility in the fan base online is Velonews, Joe Lindsey and Paul Kimmage seemed such smitten believers.

I don't buy the spiel. I don't have any better ideas on what they should do, though. Just being silent about the doping issue entirely seems more honorable, but in 2006-07 credibility was the name of the game. Now they are an established team and can dare to be ambitious perhaps. Like Columbia/CSC.
 

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ludwig said:
Nice link. I'd like to see Kimmage discuss that passage in hindsight. Part of the reason Slipstream had that extra credibility in the fan base online is Velonews, Joe Lindsey and Paul Kimmage seemed such smitten believers.

I don't buy the spiel. I don't have any better ideas on what they should do, though. Just being silent about the doping issue entirely seems more honorable, but in 2006-07 credibility was the name of the game. Now they are an established team and can dare to be ambitious perhaps. Like Columbia/CSC.
Kimmage did an interview with NY Velocityin March this year - this part of the interview is in reference to Kohl.

AS: It's ironic, because one of the things you said was that when you saw Bernard Kohl completely exhausted...

PK: I got that completely wrong! I got that completely wrong.

AS: I know! Even the things you think bring you hope turn around and bite you in the ***.

PK: Absolutely. I got that completely wrong. I felt extremely foolish after it, but in my defense...David Millar, and this is a point he made to me, I had forgotten, over the last couple of years, was that there are good guys here, and they need your support as much as the bad guys, the dopers need your scorn. I'd forgotten about that, and he has a point. And the guys who are doing it clean they definitely need the support of everyone.

The Kohl one, felt like a complete fool, in my defense, again, with the Garmin thing, the Garmin guys, I put my neck on the line, it would be easy for me to say, "No no no, I'm not doing that", because it forces me to make judgements. To give an opinion. It's much easier to paint everyone as the same than to do that. But I was certainly exposed on Kohl, I got that completely wrong.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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I wouldn't call Garmin `dopers' just yet...

Thanks for pasting the exchange between Andreu and Vaughters, that was very interesting.

But Garmin's UCI ranking in 2009? 11th. Most of the teams above Garmin have been linked to doping via rumors, and only one below them that I know of (but it is a ProCont team).

Sure, some of the Garmin riders did have good days, but these could be believable because the gains from doping just aren't as much these days, thanks to the bio-passport. A properly peaked athlete probably can beat dopers that are having a bad day now. No chance a few years back but these days it could be possible.

Even in the TdF in 2008, Vaughters said that VdV's power-to-weight never exceeded 6:1 W/kg on the longer climbs. Maybe everyone else was a little spooked because of the bio-passport? (Mostly "recovery therapy" plus smaller transfusion amounts for most other GC riders?)