Gender Equality: Unrealistic ideal or attainable goal?

[auscyclefan94]

Gender Equality: Unrealistic ideal or attainable goal?

This is a follow up from the thread that started in the Velo d'Or which has taken that thread way off topic. It started when Libertine Seguros stated Vos should receive the Velo d'Or. This caused some interesting discussion. I thought it could continue into a more broader discussion.

Please be respectful of peoples opinions.

 

[RedheadDane]

I'm afraid Women's cycling will always be behind Men's cycling in term of popularity. Whether we like it or not you guys do have a greater physique.

And you have a major advantage when it comes to long races: The ability to stand up and pee!

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'm afraid Women's cycling will always be behind Men's cycling in term of popularity. Whether we like it or not you guys do have a greater physique.

And you have a major advantage when it comes to long races: The ability to stand up and pee!

LOL, that's funny!

This thread doesn't just have to be about cycling

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

This thread doesn't just have to be about cycling

The cafe is the "non-cycling" zone, so keep it general.

By the way, my father always said that his mother (born in the late 1800s) would have laughed at the notion of men and women being equal -- the men would never be able to achieve that high level....

Susan

 

[RedheadDane]

Well... in that case.
There's one thing we women do rather frequently that you guys can't!

And even though men are ahead in some sports that doesn't mean you're ahead in every field.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The cafe is the "non-cycling" zone, so keep it general.

By the way, my father always said that his mother (born in the late 1800s) would have laughed at the notion of men and women being equal -- the men would never be able to achieve that high level....

Susan

Would your father's mother been religious at all? Often gender stereotypes regarding acheivement and rights canoriginate from religion. For example today Muslim women have to cover much of their bodies as possible though men are free to wear what they want. Religion can breed such gender discrimination.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I don't know how religious she was since she died long before I was born. However, my grandfather was an Episcopal minister.

I think it had more to do with the family she grew up in. Being the oldest of seven, five of them boys, probably shaped her attitudes.

Susan

 

[Tank Engine]

This is a re-posting from the Trophee d'Or thread. There are different aspects of equality. I guess here the discussion is about equality in the sense of fairness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Labour is one of the jobs where equality is impossible. Another is teaching. Demand is always high in the education sector for males therefore governments will pay more money to male teachers because their is a lack of them as it is also good for students to have a male teacher teaching them. This happens in other jobs as well which results in men becoming higher payed employees than females. Employers are less likely to hire a woman over a man anyway due to the fact of pregnancy which results in raising a child or marriage. The fact that women are morelikely to leave a job means that in some cases an employer is reluctant to pay a women the same amount as a man.
My view is not antiquated. It is reality. Don't call me sexist either as that is not the case.

My reply

There seems to discrepancies between the concept of equality used here. With regard to the argument between the achieivements of Vos and Gilbert, those supporting Gilbert would say that his achievements are greater, as male cyclists are faster (the performance of male athletes is not equal to those of female athletes).

Due to this it is difficult to say whose "achievements are greater". One thing is true that Vos has dominated women's cycling in a way that no woman has done for a long time (Nicole Cooke in her prime was certainly not as dominant as Marianne).

Here, ACF talks about equality in the sense of pay. Such inequality does exist, but the argument (Edit in the Trophee d'Or thread) really centres around the concept of equality of performance. Working in education, looking at those around me, there isn't any difference in the level of performance of males and females.

 

[RedheadDane]

Okay... I'll try to make a more serious answer.

There are things men, for whatever reasons, are better to than women. There are things women, for whatever reasons, are better to than men. There are things both genders are equally good at.
What there isn't however are special male occupations or female occupations. A woman can be a firefighter and a man can be a nurse. And even if you, as a woman, lack some of the physique for certain tasks if your heart is in it I say "Go for it!"

 

[jordan5000]

The only sport that has, and will ever have equal popularity in genders is tennis, something about hearing a woman grunt makes the guys tune in.

 

[Rouetheday]

The cafe is the "non-cycling" zone, so keep it general.

By the way, my father always said that his mother (born in the late 1800s) would have laughed at the notion of men and women being equal -- the men would never be able to achieve that high level....

Susan

....and your father demonstrates one area where men are superior to women.... pandering.

 

[Frosty]

The only sport that has, and will ever have equal popularity in genders is tennis, something about hearing a woman grunt makes the guys tune in.

I find it quite annoying actually, grunting in that context anyway.

Women's sport seems to benefit a lot by being on at the same time as men's sport, ie tennis, athletics. Not sure about track cycling, thankfully we wont have the 7 events for men and three events for women in the Olympics any more. Dont think that some events will be the same though, men's 100 metres will almost always get a bigger billing than the women's 100 metres. Of course, if a woman turns up who can break Flo-jo's record then the women's 100 metres will rise in prominence, but the men's is the fastest person on earth.

On a wider note, i think that some careers suit men more than women, and vice versa. To what degree this is nature or nurture is open to question. I think its a bit of both.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Okay... I'll try to make a more serious answer.

There are things men, for whatever reasons, are better to than women. There are things women, for whatever reasons, are better to than men. There are things both genders are equally good at.
What there isn't however are special male occupations or female occupations. A woman can be a firefighter and a man can be a nurse. And even if you, as a woman, lack some of the physique for certain tasks if your heart is in it I say "Go for it!"

A woman can be a firfighter is a questionable one. Their are plenty of physical requirements in being a fire fighter. As an occupation, you would certainly hire a man over a woman in that sense due to physical prowess.

 

[The Howling Fantods]

A woman can be a firfighter is a questionable one. Their are plenty of physical requirements in being a fire fighter. As an occupation, you would certainly hire a man over a woman in that sense due to physical prowess.

People (male or female) are hired if they meet the requirements of the job. If a woman meets the same requirements to be a fire fighter, then they should be hired.
I dare say there are many women whose physical prowess exceeds mine.

 

[pmcg76]

With the downturn of the Irish economy in the last few years, I was forced into the option of taking a crap job or sit on social welfare so I chose the former and ended up working in a hotel for low wages and crap hours. Thankfully I am moving on to better things again soon.

To keep it short, basically there was a set list of tasks which females were assigned to perform(all of which males could also do and often performed)and then there was additional tasks that only males were ever required to perform.

In such a situation, I found it offensive that females were payed the exact same wage as males for doing what I consider unequal work. The argument was always it was too strenous for women to do these tasks, in a case like this I dont think equal pay should apply especially as many of the tasks were doable by females. The weak female sterotype was too frequently dragged out as an excuse and was let flourish by management.

I am all for equal pay for equal work, especially in jobs that use mostly mental ability. However in most physical intensive jobs, I dont think women will ever match males and therfore I believe pay should be reflective. Likewise if there is some role where women are proven to be vastly superior than their male counteparts, that should be reflected also.

In sports I am in two minds at to what is correct, male and female compete seperately so things are slightly different. Perhaps having seperate awards in everything including the Velo d'Or is the only solution.

 

[simo1733]

Would your father's mother been religious at all? Often gender stereotypes regarding acheivement and rights canoriginate from religion. For example today Muslim women have to cover much of their bodies as possible though men are free to wear what they want. Religion can breed such gender discrimination.

Men are not free to wear what they want in Islam.Men have to cover their Aurat as well

 

[kielbasa]

Equality among the masculine, feminine, and neuter genders? Or between the male and female sexes? Don't be so PC, McFly.

Strictly speaking, sexes are complimentary, not equal, as they serve different functions, "like peas and carrots". When everyone knows their function, it's all good. When one becomes envious of the other, they become miserable.

So, it's not only not realistic, but IMO misguided.

 

[RedheadDane]

Men are not free to wear what they want in Islam.Men have to cover their Aurat as well

What's an Aurat?

Equality among the masculine, feminine, and neuter genders? Or between the male and female sexes? Don't be so PC, McFly.

Strictly speaking, sexes are complimentary, not equal, as they serve different functions, "like peas and carrots". When everyone knows their function, it's all good. When one becomes envious of the other, they become miserable.

So, it's not only not realistic, but IMO misguided.

Yes. Males and females serve different purposes biologically. But mentally or even physically I still believe we're essentially equal. Any difference, the way I see it, isn't because of sex but due to the individual's personal mental ability or physical strength.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Without distracting from the topic, this strikes a bell with racial equality (in the US; its the only experience I can talk about).

Having been to a few lectures on school reform, race becomes an issue. Most solutions are to start with agreement that there it is inequality; from individual perceptions to the way history guides those perceptions. The next step is to be open in dialogue and to be willing to change (yourselves) to minimize the problems arising from mistrust, miscommunication, ect. This is a little flowery, but I'm throwing only a little out there to make a point for this thread.

To make my post relevant, there is an undeniable inequality between men and women. I think the solution is to put those differences, attitudes, biases and facts into an open forum, so everyone can at least try to find the best solution for a given situation, without the mistrust, miscommunication ect. that arises from holding back on account of being politically correct, assumptions about prejudice, and other general mistrust. Again, a little wishy-washy, but I didn't want to be too pedantic on an internet forum. Hopefully I got my point accross?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Would your father's mother been religious at all? Often gender stereotypes regarding acheivement and rights canoriginate from religion. For example today Muslim women have to cover much of their bodies as possible though men are free to wear what they want. Religion can breed such gender discrimination.

Good point - although I would call it repression as opposed to discrimination.
As you point out a lot comes down from religion - I believe the reason women are forced to dress that way is to stop the men seeing them and having 'impure' thoughts!

What's an Aurat?



Yes. Males and females serve different purposes biologically. But mentally or even physically I still believe we're essentially equal. Any difference, the way I see it, isn't because of sex but due to the individual's personal mental ability or physical strength.

But having different biological and physical functions leads to having different thoughts, different priorities and different ways of seeing things.

My view is that we are not equal - and 'kielbas' beat me to it by describing our roles as complimentary.
Now in saying that we are not equal does not mean that women (or men) should not be allowed take on any role or job they wish and of course you should get paid for your input regardless of gender.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think there's something lost regarding life's priorities in this thread. I don't know about anyone else on here, but my wife pretty much gets all my money, and she's certain to outlive me. Now, I have more ribbons and medals in the basement, and can still outpace her on the bike, but...

 

[ramjambunath]

I think there's a misinterpretation in the west about the burqa and veals. In India and secular countries with a substantial Muslim population the burqa is not forced but a matter of choice and in any case I don't find it much too dissimilar to a dress that a nun wears. If you come here it is difficult to distinguish Muslim women from women of other religions.

As for the main topic of thread, atm if the consideration is worldwide with developing nations taken into account, equality is still quite some a distant target. The most glaring issue is that in some states is the child sex ratio as one union territory (state becoming part of union after independence) Daman and Diu has a sex ratio of 710 females for 1000 males and that is just not natural while the overall is only 933 females for 1000 males (2001 data in pdf format http://censusindia.gov.in/Data_Prod..._Population_Total_link/PDF_Links/chapter6.pdf).
Female literacy here is also unfortunately too low at 54.16%, and that itself is triple the value it was 50 years ago.
All this despite having a ministry dedicated Women and Children development, so real equality is a distant although possibly attainable target.