Giro d' Italia 2009 - Part 1 by Dr. Michele Ferrari

[42x16ss]

Don't forget that the "magical" 7W/kg mark was set during the mid-late 90's when EPO use was at it's peak. It seems that the mark now would be closer to 6W/kg for a GT winner over the last few years. Thats a figure not within the reach of a completely clean athlete but surely an indicator that things are improving (albeit at an infuriatingly slow pace).

And remember, Cristophe Bassons finished some of the fastest GT's ever without being timecut, and average speeds have dropped since then...

Food for thought no?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There's some fuzzy math going on here. Reading over Wolf's theory, then the numbers as Messisgod notes, it seems like Ferrari is either leaving factors out, or not clarifying, or adds as well as President Bush did. Then again, that might make sense as he's about as trustworthy...

 

[craig1985]

I found his article analysing the the blood passport much more interesting...

and if you'd like o calculate your own VAM so that you can compare it to a pro's

http://www.ciclomaniac.com/vam.asp

fill out start altitude
fill out end altidue
fill out time in format hh.mm.ss

I bet it's metric

Unfortunatly it tested my Italiano skills a bit too much there. Is there another good English site out there for it?

 

[djconnel]

1838 meters/hour (Col de la Gallo) corresponds to an Old La Honda time of 12:53. Greg Drake has the record there at just under 14 minutes, with (AFAIK) Eric Heiden second @ 14:15. Crr may be slightly higher on OLH, but this is probably offset by a slightly steeper average grade (7.3%).

This VAM number is similar to that I'd seen in the Italian semi-classics (the pre-Mondiale) 3-4 years ago, when it's acknowledged doping was rampant. Riders in those days were obviously not getting their pharmaceutical money's worth, as today's clean peloton is able to match their performance. Maybe it's the super-stiff bottom brackets on today's frames.

 

[djconnel]

Biggest number I find in a quick search is 2220 m/hr for Valverde on St Nicholas in the 2008 Liege-Bastogne-Liege: 2220 meters/hour for 1.0 km @ 11.1%. Steeper climbs allow for a higher VAM (less energy goes into rolling resistance and wind resistance), for example 225 m/hr when the grade goes from 7% to 11%. Additionally, shorter efforts allow for a higher VAM than longer efforts, due to higher available anaerobic power. For example, 5% more power on a 20 minute effort than on a 60 minute effort (using Coggan's estimator for FTP). So in this context, Valverde's number makes sense.

 

[BigBoat]

Biggest number I find in a quick search is 2220 m/hr for Valverde on St Nicholas in the 2008 Liege-Bastogne-Liege: 2220 meters/hour for 1.0 km @ 11.1%. Steeper climbs allow for a higher VAM (less energy goes into rolling resistance and wind resistance), for example 225 m/hr when the grade goes from 7% to 11%. Additionally, shorter efforts allow for a higher VAM than longer efforts, due to higher available anaerobic power. For example, 5% more power on a 20 minute effort than on a 60 minute effort (using Coggan's estimator for FTP). So in this context, Valverde's number makes sense.

lol

If he can push 8.5 watts per kilo for 3 minutes his FTP was upper 6s...

 

[Leopejo]

Interesting insight by Mick Rogers:

(Twitter bashers stay away)

Morning all. Going to be a hot one today. Just out of interest, I averaged 6.8 watts/kg for 5.5mins on San Luca yesterday. Lactate central!!

 

[BigBoat]

His FTP would be 5.8 if he did 6.8 for 5 min. He was "following" and not TTing either. Plus after a 5 hour stage you cant get much better than FTP even for a 15-20 minutes. I dont believe anything higher than 5.7 is even possible without red cell jacking and thats in an F-ing FLUKE like Lemond or Hinault, Fingon, Eddie, Coppi, Anquetil other past freaks. A clean mathematical anomoly would not make the lead group even for 1 stage if he (Rogers) speaks the truth. Probably would have been a DNF by now.

Okay... MAYBE top 40... If the power info Rogers gives is correct.

IF watt Ferrari says is correct DNF or below 100th.

 

[stephens]

I dont believe anything higher than 5.7 is even possible without red cell jacking and thats in an F-ing FLUKE like Lemond or Hinault, Fingon, Eddie, Coppi, Anquetil other past freaks.

And of course, there is a fluke for you for every cycling generation up to Lemond, but then all of a sudden such humans ceased to exist and thus anyone good must be on drugs.

As for the numbers, I think you know twice as much about them as most of us, but only half as much about them as you think you know.

 

[BigBoat]

Stephens, I'm not saying there are not guys racing today that can get upper 5s for an hour without 02 carriers, its just very rare. How many streeet legal cars can hit 240 mph bro? Thats an example of something that occurs but rarely.

I used those old timer Tour champions as an example because they represented true talented freaks before epo/ blood doping. The reason we know they were not blood doping (even though it existed in the Olympics) is because the times on climbs were drastically slower. Even with bikes 2 pounds heavier if they were jacked the difference from them to now would be seconds.

 

[stephens]

On a 5km 7% grade, at 250 watts the time savings is supposedly about 6 seconds per pound of weight lost. (according to James C. Martin, Ph.D of Univ. of Utah). How that translates to modern guys on modern bikes at their power outputs, I'm not sure.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

BigB - Still think Wiggins is jacked? He finished 48 minutes back today, 4th from last, in the Autobus. His FTP was probably about 4.6.

 

[BigBoat]

You could maybe get 30 seconds on Alpe D'Huez with a lighter bike at just 250 watts...They are pushing a lot more than 250 though, Like 475.

 

[BigBoat]

BigB - Still think Wiggins is jacked? He finished 48 minutes back today, 4th from last, in the Autobus. His FTP was probably about 4.6.

His FTP is a heckuva lot higher than 4.6 watts per kilo Alpe d'Huez. If he had 4.6 watts per kilo for the whole Giro he'd be dropped in the opening stages and DNF quickly! It not about speed up climbs, its following guys that have 6.5 watts per kilo over and over again day after day.

 

[Juan Pelota]

6.7 was the magical number, not 7.0 but as I recall that's over a short distance. As it was tested on a certain climb that Lance trained on..

Without standardizing distances the whole watts/kg ratio is pretty meaningless.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

His FTP is a heckuva lot higher than 4.6 watts per kilo Alpe d'Huez. If he had 4.6 watts per kilo for the whole Giro he'd be dropped in the opening stages and DNF quickly!

I pulled that number out of my a** for fun. But still, the guy was completely shelled yesterday, finished 4th from last place, and is likely to finish out of the top 100, and over two hours behind. Considered one of the talents of the future, he could barely keep up with the autobus. So, do you still think he's "jacked", and lying when he says he's against doping?

 

[BigBoat]

I pulled that number out of my a** for fun. But still, the guy was completely shelled yesterday, finished 4th from last place, and is likely to finish out of the top 100, and over two hours behind. Considered one of the talents of the future, he could barely keep up with the autobus. So, do you still think he's "jacked", and lying when he says he's against doping?

Thats more PROOF that he is! He has the world 4,000 meter record. With that his total V02 (total 02 assimilation) is through the roof. You dont go from Fred to superman and than back to Fred again. (unless not getting a blood refill for important mountain stages.)

Clearly he has targeted the Time trial stages of this race and not the mountains (at 185 pounds.) Gee, wonder why? Its V02 max (oxygen assimilation per kilo) not total power that decides the overall classification of this thing because of the climbing.

 

[RdBiker]

So apparently you've come to the conclusion that Ferrari's numbers are simply wrong? Can anyone calculate the correct watts for the harder mountains like Monte Petrano?

 

[jopatt]

No, he is only reporting on the cyclists' performance, without any hidden agenda.

He has done that for most Giros and Tours. He, like us, is interested in athletes' performances, and is kind enough to take timings and make a few calculations for us. Sometimes he adds some comments, like "they went slow, you see they are getting tired" or such. But really, I don't think that doping has anything to do with his VAM reports.

I often wonder why haemotologists or gynacologists for that matter are so interested in power wattages, VAM etc?

 

[BigBoat]

I often wonder why haemotologists or gynacologists for that matter are so interested in wattages, VAM etc?

I believe the numbers he came up with are close... **** hits the fan on long steep climbs anyways.

 

[davidg]

He has the world 4,000 meter record.

To clarify, Wiggins is part of the British team 4000m world record.

He holds the individual Olympic record at 4:15.031, but the World Record is 4:11.114 – set by Great Britain’s Chris Boardman in 1996 using an aerodynamic position now banned by the UCI. This is still listed by the UCI, so I guess they do not distinguish between athletes record and all out for 4000m.