Gran Fondos

[Race Radio]

The following posts have been pulled across from the Masters doping thread as they are discussions of GFs and had nothing to do with doping. Please keep that in mind and not introduce doping back into the topic

The irony of people who think it should be for "fun" and then complaining about others taking it seriously is somewhat delicious.

I have been somewhat fascinated by (euro) GF's for the last two years or so. Is there real money to be made in winning them? Like the Maratona or La Marmotte?

Thanks!

Kevin

Increasingly races offer some prize money. There are teams as well that are focused on GF's and pay riders. There are a few riders that can make a small living racing them but the vast majority are true amateurs. The Maratona is a big deal. Live, nation wide TV coverage. It is a great show. The winner is usually a former climbing focused Pro (Barrow, Rumsas)

I would heavily recommend doing some at least once in your life, but be prepared to get schooled. Yes, I know you are a good rider, I have heard your name, but you will still have hundreds of riders ahead of you in the top races. Imagine a race filled with Chris Walkers and you get the idea.

10 years ago GF and Sportif's were fun rides, only slightly more competitive then say the Death Ride....now they are full gas. Times I rode 5 years ago that would put me in the top 10% now would be lucky to be in the top 20%. They are still a lot of fun but certainly more aggressive riding then a few years ago.

If you need any info on any of the races in Italy or France send me a PM I have ridden most of them.

 

[nslckevin]

I would heavily recommend doing some at least once in your life, but be prepared to get schooled. Yes, I know you are a good rider, I have heard your name, but you will still have hundreds of riders ahead of you in the top races. Imagine a race filled with Chris Walkers and you get the idea.

Though I will admit to having fantasized about dropping the lead group w/ a couple of km to go on Alpe d'Huez in La Marmotte, the rational side of my brain understands and agrees with you. At the bare minimum it's got to be at least as hard as a quality cat 1 race. Last I checked, at that level on that kind of course, reality will be MUCH different! But sometimes it helps get me through those winter trainer rides.

One of my team mates did the Cinque Terra GF in September. He was amazed at just how fast it was. Not necessarily surprised, but still amazed.

BTW, my question about the prize money was just curiosity as to the motivations of GF teams, etc. Never thought that I'd actually get any that they might be giving out.

Thanks again.

If you need any info on any of the races in Italy or France send me a PM I have ridden most of them.

Thanks. Someday I hope to pull it off. I've done some riding in those areas, hopefully some day I'll get to do one of those GFs.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I would heavily recommend doing some at least once in your life, but be prepared to get schooled. Yes, I know you are a good rider, I have heard your name, but you will still have hundreds of riders ahead of you in the top races. Imagine a race filled with Chris Walkers and you get the idea.

I have a masters client (turning 50 this year) who, without a priority start, came in 80th something place at Marmotte (under 6.5hrs). He's never raced any race before his past year, just some Sportives. For perspective though the winner's time was 5:32:xx.

I'm guessing Kevin's threshold W/kg is somewhat better than my client (~4.3-4.4W/kg), although I don't know about Kevin's endurance for a 6+hr event but that's sure trainable.

 

[nslckevin]

I have a masters client (turning 50 this year) who, without a priority start, came in 80th something place at Marmotte (under 6.5hrs). He's never raced any race before his past year, just some Sportives. For perspective though the winner's time was 5:32:xx.

I'm guessing Kevin's threshold W/kg is somewhat better than my client (~4.3-4.4W/kg), although I don't know about Kevin's endurance for a 6+hr event but that's sure trainable.

5.0 W/kg, but factory calibrated SRM w/ Q rings, so take that number for what it's worth.

I've got plenty of endurance. 5.5-6 hours is no big deal. Putting out the altitude adjusted equivalent of my FTP for the last hour of La Marmotte could be something else entirely! I do know that when I rode Alpe d'Huez in 2010 (full gas) I missed the Strava KOM to the village by ~20 seconds to a guy who did it in La Marmotte. Of course I was tired too, having rode all the way from the Casino supermarket in Bourg d'Oisans.

BTW, I did the full ride a week later (on timtoo.fr, no GPS that day) and was put in my place when I looked up the Tour de France TT results to see that I would have missed the time cut and lost something like 7 minutes to the noted climber Eric Zabel who was probably cruising. Not gonna quit my day job...

Kevin

 

[Race Radio]

I have a masters client (turning 50 this year) who, without a priority start, came in 80th something place at Marmotte (under 6.5hrs). He's never raced any race before his past year, just some Sportives. For perspective though the winner's time was 5:32:xx.

I'm guessing Kevin's threshold W/kg is somewhat better than my client (~4.3-4.4W/kg), although I don't know about Kevin's endurance for a 6+hr event but that's sure trainable.

6:30 for the Marmotte is very impressive. (Are you sure it wasn't the Maratona? ) For a new rider it is incredible. I know guys who were very accomplished Colorado Cat 1's who barely broke 7:00. Really, anything under 8:00 is good.

The priority start is not so important with the Marmotte as you are climbing within a few km. It is more of an issue in the Maratona. You are correct, endurance is key. Riding just below threshold for hours is a uniqie skill.

In my experience the Italian races are far more competitive. The Maratona in more competitive then the Marmotte. I doubt the winners are much faster but the depth of the field is much stronger.

 

[Race Radio]

5.0 W/kg, but factory calibrated SRM w/ Q rings, so take that number for what it's worth.

I've got plenty of endurance. 5.5-6 hours is no big deal. Putting out the altitude adjusted equivalent of my FTP for the last hour of La Marmotte could be something else entirely! I do know that when I rode Alpe d'Huez in 2010 (full gas) I missed the Strava KOM to the village by ~20 seconds to a guy who did it in La Marmotte. Of course I was tired too, having rode all the way from the Casino supermarket in Bourg d'Oisans.

BTW, I did the full ride a week later (on timtoo.fr, no GPS that day) and was put in my place when I looked up the Tour de France TT results to see that I would have missed the time cut and lost something like 7 minutes to the noted climber Eric Zabel who was probably cruising. Not gonna quit my day job...

Kevin

Have you ever done Everest Challenge? The first day is very similar to La Marmotte, your time in France would be maybe 15-30 minutes slower

If at full gas you are doing 50 minutes for the full Alp d'huez then 7 hours would be a good target for the Marmotte. Maybe a little faster.

The biggest challenge is the Telegraph/Galibier combo. It is such a long climb and so easy to overcook it and die on the Alp

 

[Winterfold]

50 minutes for the Alpe (is very impressive) but would get you about 10-15th out of a couple hundred in the 'tourists' Thursday morning race up it they run every week in the Summer. When I did it the winner was under 45 minutes, which I think was also his bodyweight in kg.

I could not believe the standard of the riders entering a 5Euro fun event. All the good young guys on 34-27 or even 29s too. It convinced me to get a new cassette so at least I learned something from being totally owned.

 

[nslckevin]

50 minutes for the Alpe (is very impressive) but would get you about 10-15th out of a couple hundred in the 'tourists' Thursday morning race up it they run every week in the Summer. When I did it the winner was under 45 minutes, which I think was also his bodyweight in kg.

I could not believe the standard of the riders entering a 5Euro fun event. All the good young guys on 34-27 or even 29s too. It convinced me to get a new cassette so at least I learned something from being totally owned.

I was 46 and change to the village. Isn't that where the Thursday "race" goes? Or does it go all the way to the Tour stage finish line?

I just looked on Strava and saw that some 40+ year old guy from the UK did 36' to the village! VAM=1700! Holy crap that's fast! Like Tour de France fast. Didn't Sanchez do something like 41 to the top?

I love my compact. 36x27. I used the 24 at the bottom of the Alpe the first time I did it. Using the 27 was a much better choice when I did it a week later.

I wish I was there for the Thursday race. That has to be worth a minute, maybe two.

 

[nslckevin]

Have you ever done Everest Challenge? The first day is very similar to La Marmotte, your time in France would be maybe 15-30 minutes slower

I always want to, but when the time comes and it's the end of September I just can't stomach another long drive and weekend away.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

6:30 for the Marmotte is very impressive. (Are you sure it wasn't the Maratona? ) For a new rider it is incredible.

Definitely Marmotte.

Over the past two seasons we've taken his 20-min mean maximal power from 4.0W/kg to 5.0W/kg.

All down to good training and some untapped genetic talent. It's not that incredible. He works bloody hard and consistently. He travels, takes the bike and a trainer with him and will do 6 days/week for weeks on end on the turbo in a hotel room.

His offspring is in Olympic trials in another aerobic endurance sport, so I'm guessing they got some of that from Dad (although mitochondral DNA comes from your Mum).

Faster progress is possible with some who are blessed with some natural genetic gifts.

One rider in our training centre starting with us a year ago doing our turbo sessions 2-3 times per week. His threshold power has gone from 2.8W/kg as a triathlete to 4.4W/kg focused on bike riding only and he finished top 15 at Amy's Granfondo. He had never raced bikes before either.

I've seen others go from ~ 4W/kg to ~5W/kg in a fairly short time span (less than a year) with good quality training. *******s.

 

[Winterfold]

Are we OT here, Im not sure, I guess clean masters performances are a viable tangent

this is the finish on the Thursday race

How that relates to the Tour finish is difficult to say 100% accurately as the Tour goes D211F and the Thursday race goes D211, it probably is a little easier, so you would find yourself very competitive

I need to get on one of Alex's programmes before I go back with the aim of doing anything other than getting in the way. The events I do and TTing are definitely at the 'relaxed Masters' end of the scale.

 

[dolophonic]

There is doping at the big Grand Fondo's for sure.. and anyone who thinks they can rock up to the Etape etc and make podium might have another thing coming.
They are a lot of fun and as much of a race as you might like.
Bottom line there is doping going on in society on so many levels. Professors and students on their adderol to masters on Hgh.. cycling is no more guilty than the rest of society.

 

[Race Radio]

Are we OT here, Im not sure, I guess clean masters performances are a viable tangent

this is the finish on the Thursday race

How that relates to the Tour finish is difficult to say 100% accurately as the Tour goes D211F and the Thursday race goes D211, it probably is a little easier, so you would find yourself very competitive

I need to get on one of Alex's programmes before I go back with the aim of doing anything other than getting in the way. The events I do and TTing are definitely at the 'relaxed Masters' end of the scale.

The TDF/Marmotte finish is farther then that finish. You would turn left and go through the tunnel then finish at the top of the town. 4-10 minutes extra depending on your speed

 

[Winterfold]

RR I looked on the map and I'm not sure it would take that long to get there (of all things I went trout fishing with my daughter at a lake there afterwards and I reckon you could walk it that quickly) - you get to the finish coming in from the W rather than the S (how I think the Tour does) - but I'm not going to argue the toss on it and respect to Kevin in either case, I think his time is very very impressive. All the kiddoes going under 50 were espoirs who weighed less than a gnats fart and it would really surprise them if a Brit or Yank master was up there at the end

kevin - or anyone else - if you're ever out there on a Thursday give it a go, it is serious, not serious and massive fun at the same time. For 5E you get a timing band, they have a pickup with speakers leading you out through Bourg and they shout your name out with a decent crowd as you cross the line. Its a hoot. Noone gives a toss if you beat 45 minutes or do it in an hour 45, but you can race if you want and it will be hard, it is what masters and amateur racing should be IMO.

In my experience masters racing in the UK is well ridden and tough enough, but I cant imagine anyone doping - it is more of social thing - the guys who are still properly fast and competitive will race Elite/Cat 1/Cat 2 as fits.

Sportives are becoming a bit of a joke though, fatties putting their name down for the 100mile course then doing the 60 mile and claiming the time, that kind of dumb.

I much prefer the vibe at harder audax and reliability events where you need a bit of nous and experience and to know which way is North etc.

 

[dolophonic]

Yes that is not the finish line for the TDF, Etape or most any other race. The finish is quite far towards the top and it would add a bit of time to your "time".

RR have you heard of the Cent Col's Challenge? that is very hard too.

(off topic )

 

[nslckevin]

Here's the Tour de France finish line.

Only took about 20 tries...

 

[Race Radio]

Yes that is not the finish line for the TDF, Etape or most any other race. The finish is quite far towards the top and it would add a bit of time to your "time".

RR have you heard of the Cent Col's Challenge? that is very hard too.

(off topic )

Hopefully the mods will split this off into another thread.....Hopefully NOT talking doping in the clinic is not against the rules.

I have heard of the Cent Cols. It seems a bit crazy. I usually lean to the 5-7 hours hard instead of 5-7 DAYS. For a multi day race I think the http://www.hauteroute.org/ looks a bit better, or the http://www.tourtransalp.de. In 2013 a few buddies and I will be doing this http://www.grande-traversee-alpes.com, but it is not a race, we are just going to hit some big Cols while the Tour is around

 

[Winterfold]

Dolophonic - im not bragging about any 'time' - LOL i cant even beat the hour - I'm comfortable getting owned by anyone faster or with more panache in any event I enter or even just on a ride.

I already backed off my initial comment to Kevin once the difference in the end was pointed out.

Still a lot of fun though - lots of guys in the UK who pay £20 to 'race' a sportive should do it and gain some perspective.

(assuming the perspective gained was not dropping 5 grand of AICAR and obsessing about hitting 5 w/kg)

 

[Martin318is]

Just a quick reminder that you are out of the Clinic now so please avoid doping references in this thread. (Yes, I know that the AICAR one was loose, this is just a general comment)

 

[Michele]

Increasingly races offer some prize money. There are teams as well that are focused on GF's and pay riders. There are a few riders that can make a small living racing them but the vast majority are true amateurs. The Maratona is a big deal. Live, nation wide TV coverage. It is a great show. The winner is usually a former climbing focused Pro (Barrow, Rumsas)

Prize money is not allowed in Italy for amateur cycling, so you'd get either some cycling items (frames/wheels/etc) or some kind of big discount checks.

Even paycheck from amateur teams are not allowed, but they pass it as a sort of "refound".

 

[Race Radio]

Prize money is not allowed in Italy for amateur cycling, so you'd get either some cycling items (frames/wheels/etc) or some kind of big discount checks.

Even paycheck from amateur teams are not allowed, but they pass it as a sort of "refound".

I am sure you know better then I but I know Jamie Burrow was making money from his team and prize money. Joe Papp as well. Both were GF focused teams. Some races do have prize money. The Transalp splits 20,000 between the top three teams, although they usually only have 2-3 stages in Italy

 

[Race Radio]

Here is an interesting interview with Jamie Burrow about the commercial side of the front end of the field.

http://pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7559

When I first started to ride them I thought I would do it part time for enjoyment, and to win some money to help set up my business. I saw that you could win good money if you get results, but to do it properly you have to train full time – like a pro.

The pros didn’t ride them back then; but now there are maybe 20 ex-pros in the fields.

How many events do you ride each year?
Jamie: Around 28/29; once per week; you’re paid by the team to win them or to keep the win in the team - Team Merckx TuttoSport.com in my case – which will be four or five riders. It’s not like a pro team where you ride 70 races and try to win five; the team wants results every week.

Can you live on the prize money?
Jamie: The prizes tend to be product, but that can be sold for cash and the money split.

 

[Boeing]

Good thread and clearly the GF's in Europe are of a different agenda than anything here in socal.

What exactly is the definition of a GF?

 

[nslckevin]

Good thread and clearly the GF's in Europe are of a different agenda than anything here in socal.

What exactly is the definition of a GF?

My GUESS is that it would be something like the cycling equal to the California International Marathon. A mass start event that is a very serious race at the pointy end, mass participatory event in the middle, and an achievement to finish near the back. Like the CIM they draw some very good athletes, but not the best in the game.

UNLIKE the CIM they are held in stunning locations. I.e. summer in the Alps or Dolomites vs. cold and foggy Sacramento in December.

How did I do?

 

[Michele]

Good thread and clearly the GF's in Europe are of a different agenda than anything here in socal.

What exactly is the definition of a GF?

Granfondo, at least in Italy, were at first what cyclosportive are now around the world; a mass start with thousands of cycling lovers in a nice scenary with not any final ranking.

Donno when exactly it happened, but they started to put ranking at these events and they turned out in a mess (imho); a bad mix between a race and a cyclosportive.

NB 1: there are still many cyclosportive events in Italy.
NB 2: Im not against granfondos, I actually like them but lately they are getting over the top in some aspects.